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freedomseeker
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 15:53
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Hello all, this is my first internet post thing ever. I have been reading this site for quite a while now and thoroughly enjoy the wisdom and experience given here for everyone. Thank you. Now to the reason I "signed up" for something on the widest spread spy technology ever create (the internet). My wife and family have made up our minds to build a cabin on our remote acreage in southeast Colorado area. I have a plan ready to go, obviously with a lot of help from you all, but I am wanting your experienced opinions before I break soil. So if you please, here is my plan. The size will be 12' x 24' . I am going to have the foundation be made of 8" round concrete piers buried 48"+ in the ground with double 2" x 10" beams running along the 24' sides and down center on top of concrete piers spaced 6' o.c. I plan on beveling out the bottoms of holes and pouring a 6"-8" footing ( I'm just going to dump it in the hole with no forms ) then using 8" round galvanized 26ga. Pipe as a pier form and remove the pipe after 5-6 days of curing. I will also have two 1/2" rebar pounded into the ground and stop 6" below top of pier and then a metal bracket to connect wood beam on the top. I was thinking of just backfilling the holes around the pipe after footings maybe a 2"x4" or two screwed to the side at ground level. For the three beams I was thinking 12' long 2"x10" treated lumber, two nailed together side by side staggered so joints land on piers. Then for the floor joists I am planning on untreated 2"x8" placed 16" o.c. and on the bottom of the joists I was thinking of stapling tyvek or similar material then between the beams I want to put 1" polyshield nailed to joists bottom. The bottom of the joists will be about 33" above ground. Next I want to stack two r-13 faceless batts in floor joists, at this point I am not sure if I should plastic over the joists or not, is there a downside if I do? For the subfloor it seems more cost effective to use 1"x6"or8" pine or even whitewood and just stain and clearcoat that as opposed to 3/4" osb and finish floor on top. Walls will be 2"x4" studs 16"o.c. , double top plate, single floor plate. I'm going to use the 1" polyshield behind the t1-11 siding, along with the tyvek. R-13 in the walls and again with the plastic inside. I will not do any wiring, plumbing, finishing in general at this time. On to the rafters, I was going to go with a gambrel style roof for a future loft to be built. The rafters will be 2"x6" with 1/2" plywood gussets and hurricane straps at walls 16"o.c. no overhangs. 7/16" osb for decking, tar paper, shingles, metal drip edges but no gutters for now. As for insulation I was going to just stuff the rafters to the gills with faceless batts and cover with plastic for now. It will be approximately nineteen feet from concrete to roof peak and 21' from the ground. And that's pretty much everything for now, I will finish interior later as the budget allows. I would certainly appreciate any and all opinions, insight, recommendations, or just plain old criticism any of you have regarding my plan.
Thank you, Mike.
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sparky1
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 19:18
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i'm no contractor-
is there a way to do the Walls 6" vice 4" isn't colorado cold.? might help with snow load as well.?-?why NO overhang? 4" over hang would be less water running down the side walls/.
sparky1 in s.Va.
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freedomseeker
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 19:42
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Thanks for the reply sparky1. The overhang is a good idea and it would be easy enough to extend the rafters and add lookouts. As far as the wall thickness it is a simple matter of cost, I am anticipating furring out the walls later to achieve r-28 to r-30 give or take. Yes it does get very cold here which is why in trying to create a tightly sealed "cooler" box of a cabin.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 21:20
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Wow! Sounds like you are on the verge of making your dream place come true Freedomseeker...Congratulations!
I agree about some overhang to protect walls some, as I will have a gable style log and most say the more overhang the better. Not real familiar with gambrel roofs, but depending on roof pitch, more over hang on mine starts chopping into the tops of my window views....it's a fine line.
Enjoy this summer!
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razmichael
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 21:35
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Quoting: freedomseeker The rafters will be 2"x6" with 1/2" plywood gussets and hurricane straps at walls 16"o.c.
Although it is only 12' span, most references suggest the gussets equal the depth of the rafter so two 3/4 plywood gussets. Consider 2x8 for the rafters as 2x6 will not allow for much insulation in the future. If you have not already, check out the rafters to ensure they can handle the snow loads. Gambrel rafter specifications are hard to find in standard code references. I did mine (16'span) but used a structural ridge along the middle to avoid the need for rafter ties holding the wall together (cathedral ceiling). You will love the head room a barn roof gives in a loft!
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 21:44
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Quoting: sparky1 i'm no contractor- is there a way to do the Walls 6" vice 4" isn't colorado cold.? might help with snow load as well.?-?why NO overhang? 4" over hang would be less water running down the side walls/. sparky1 in s.Va.
Agreed, you will find on Colorado, you wont be able to get the required R value. I suspect the walsl will need to be R19/21. Floor about R30 and ceiling probably R38 or R40.
The vapor barrier on the underside of the floor needs to breath. So a tyvek type wrap, while the ground need to have a vapor barrier in black, non breathable. I can tell you if you dont put a fine metal mesh over the underside of your floor, you will have mice under your cabin in the floor and insulation. Can you do a footing/stemwall? Can you get a dozer to do the dig out. You will end up with lots of space underneath for storage and easy to crawl around underneath.
Under T1-11, should be just tyvek. You can use the vapor barrier on the inside also.
Overhand is nice, or weather takes a toll on siding.
Rafters stuffed to the gills wont breath and will sweat and drip though the ceiling and rot the roof out. You need air space in that rafter. So maybe 2X8, then open to air at the bottom and the top (ridge cap) and bird block vents or soffit vents.
I dont understand about the "pipes" for the foundation piers.
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Kudzu
Member
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 21:51
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sounds like you are a man with a plan, go for it and post lots of pics.
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freedomseeker
Member
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 22:27
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Alright well I'm having fun already, thanks for all of the reply's. Toyota you are exactly right about the required r values. My plan is to do a "bare minimum" insulated shell for now. I know its more costly in the end to fur everything out later but I'm a cash only guy and I have just enough for a shell no dag nammit I'm gonna build one. Sorry I'm just excited to get started building. I did not even consider the condensation issue with the insulated box, so I will certainly consider buying 2"x8" for the rafters, thanks. What is the downside of the polyshield? I have never used it I just like the r-3 it claims to offer. Eh.. footings and stem walls? I could get any equipment I need in but I have not worked with block nearly as much as posts and footings and I want this done entirely by my hands. The mesh is a very good idea though, I will do that for sure. As for the pipes, they are your standard issue round duct made of 26ga. Galvanized sheetmetal, I just want to use these as concrete forms instead of buying those cardboard tubes.
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freedomseeker
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 22:47
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Thanks kudzo, I am feeling the bug, I have for several years but now I just can't stand the waiting, its a lot different when you have the money and time to actually make the dream a reality. I will do my best to figure out the picture thing. I'm baby stepping the internet involvement.
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rayyy
Member
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2013 20:07
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This is sooo cool,Freedom.All I can say is(GO FOR IT)You won't regret it.First time your standing in your cabin during a poaring rain storm,nice and warm and dry,you'll have the biggest grin on your face and thinking COOL,I did this!
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2013 21:32 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: freedomseeker Alright well I'm having fun already, thanks for all of the reply's. Toyota you are exactly right about the required r values. My plan is to do a "bare minimum" insulated shell for now. I know its more costly in the end to fur everything out later but I'm a cash only guy
I too was a cash only guy and used the pay as you go plan too. And the different on 2X4 studs vs 2X6 studs on my cabin was $130 total (lumber pkg). Think of the extra strength the 2X6 will have vs the furring strips on the 2X4. The labor savings alone by not having to go back plus the extra strength is enough to justify it. Remember you will be nailing interior walls to strips vs studs also.
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TheCabinCalls
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2013 09:37
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You have a good plan and seemed to have researched carefully. Welcome and enjoy your build.
I hate spending money and I, like you, prefer to do things in stages. But I don't recommend skimping on insulation now. It is not much more money to get it insulated to the max. If we are being honest the insulation is the one thing you want go back and do better later. It is so much easier to shop around for the best price you can get and do it in phase 1.
Also overhangs is a must if not for function for the look. You want to love driving up to your place each time.
Remember building is as simple as three things: Time, Money, Quality
If you want it to move faster it will cost you either money or quality. If you want quality it will cost you time or money. If you want to save money you need to spend more of your time to get the same quality.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2013 10:33
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Quoting: TheCabinCalls Remember building is as simple as three things: Time, Money, Quality If you want it to move faster it will cost you either money or quality. If you want quality it will cost you time or money. If you want to save money you need to spend more of your time to get the same quality.
That is well put. I like that quote. 
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freedomseeker
Member
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# Posted: 16 Mar 2013 11:53
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Hello again, first of all I want to thank everyone for the comments. The input is very helpful. So far I am enjoying this forum very much, I'm glad I signed up. I am going over to my property today and I will try to get a few pics of my chosen spot. I have been tossing around a lot of numbers the past few days and I wanna throw this out for debate, and I would like the oldtimers to chime in on this one. I agree with everyone about the higher r-value and thicker walls. Cabincalls has a good point about getting to things "later". If I change the foundation to treated 6x6s on 12" footings (below frostline) as opposed to full concrete piers I should be able to use 2x6 for walls and 2x12 for rafters giving plenty of room for required insulation thicknesses. Is there anyone that for any reason would advise against this? I have gotten lots of pros and cons with both, it would be nice to hear from a guy who built a cabin over 40 years ago that is still solid, what method did you use for the foundation? Thanks in advance everyone, I love the feedback.
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Purplerules
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# Posted: 20 Mar 2013 19:52
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Welcome Freedomseeker you are well on your way to making it a reality. And yes this site is addictive but well worth signing up for with all the encouragement and advice you get!
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TheCabinCalls
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2013 10:35
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freedomseeker, so you are thinking that concrete piers are going to be a lot more money then treated 6x6 on top of concrete footings? Would you then backfill the 6x6 posts with gravel? My concern is that area where post exits the ground. That seems to be the biggest fail point.
Do you have a drawing of the foundation approach? How far apart the piers/posts will be etc. I'd be curious to see the cost comparison. Would you have to hand mix the concrete onsite? or can you get a truck in?
6x6 x8' is around $15. 80lb bag of concrete is $3. Sono tube is $5. So you might need 6 bags to fill so you're at $23 for concrete pier. Don't hold me to these numbers I am just throwing them out for EXAMPLE.
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ICC
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2013 13:05
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a problem with concrete piers and wood posts on top and then beams on those, is the connection of the concrete to the wood post if you look at the specs for the simpson brackets commonly used they are only rated for uplift resistance and offer little lateral resistance they can act like a hinge when strong winds blow on the building side in that respect a continuous wood pier is better although it too will not pass code inspections if the inspector follows the book
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bobbotron
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2013 13:25
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Quoting: ICC a problem with concrete piers and wood posts on top and then beams on those, is the connection of the concrete to the wood post if you look at the specs for the simpson brackets commonly used they are only rated for uplift resistance and offer little lateral resistance they can act like a hinge when strong winds blow on the building side in that respect a continuous wood pier is better although it too will not pass code inspections if the inspector follows the book
This is why I did all concrete piers. Could proper bracing of the wood part of the piers make this concrete / wood arrangement to code?
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ICC
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2013 14:36
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short answer is no all code approved foundations require a continuous concrete footing, not spot footers an exception is compacted gravel used for permanent wood foundation and they have their own rules for an already in place pier foundation the best method to reinforce against lateral movement is to build shear wall sections between piers both across the width and down the length at least at each corner if not all the way around shear walls are like brace walls in the main and upper floor framing just with a different name. pt wood and plywood required i have not seen any bracing here that an engineer would call adequate seems a lot of builders do not take lateral loading into account in their designs
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Ross
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# Posted: 1 Apr 2013 18:06
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I have a small cabin that I built myself, 12' x 20'. I find that 12' really is pretty narrow. If I had it to do over again I would build it 16' wide. Also, everything under the plywood floor is treated lumber. I overbuilt the roof so that it would stand up to a heavy snow load. Plywood gussets would probably not be a strong enough design. Also I installed ceiling joists to tie the top plates together. Otherwise the snow load would bear down on the pitched roof and force the side walls of the cabin apart, and the roof might collapse. Ceiling joists on 48"centres would do the job, and as long as you don't put anything on top of them you will be able to see up all the way up to the inside surface of the roof.
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freedomseeker
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# Posted: 2 Apr 2013 01:17
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Thank you everyone for the replies. To the expense of the foundation questions, no I cannot get a truck in and the pump guy must be a politician for what he is robbing folks of around here. I would spend more on the concrete mostly because of the hauling and lack of dry storage on location. In limited to one or two trips/days for concrete work or the $50 trips in and out really start eating the budget. I do have drawings of everything but I have no idea how put them in this virtual space. The foundation is a 15 post grid 6' centers on all posts. Then three 2x10 beams ( triple 2x10 for each beam ) running parallel with 24' length and 6' apart along 12' side. I plan to bolt or let-in 2x10 bracing diagonally across all posts. Posts will be compacted with native soil and tapered away from post at grade, unless there is a better medium to be used? At some point there will be a loft with floor joists tying the walls/rafters together, before next winter for sure. I hope that gets most of it any way. Thanks again for the feedback, I don't get on here everyday but I will be back, and I'm going to continue trying to figure this picture thing out. They keep telling me at the pharmacy where I get my film developed that I need to "go digital" and I guess this is why!
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