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optimistic
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# Posted: 6 May 2013 23:28 - Edited by: optimistic
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Hey all,
Last weekend was a success.. Built a sliding loft ladder (pictures coming soon), loft railing, and bathroom walls from steel studs.
Not bad.
Next time - windows. Quick recap - I have a pre-fab 12'x12' shed. 13' high. 2x4 construction and 2x6 rafters with steel roof.
I would like to install two of these - http://www.homedepot.com/p/American-Craftsman-50-Double-Hung-Buck-Windows-36-in-x-74- in-White-with-LowE3-Insulated-Glass-Argon-Gas-and-Screen-50-DH-BUCK/203157212?N=as47Z 1z0xsz2#more_info
Questions -
1. Any good guides on framing in existing structure? I have made a 3d model to scale. I think I over killed it with two king studs but what the hack... It is $8 and on a 10' stud - makes a difference...
2. Should I make the sill on a bit of an angle to the outside for water?
3. This window, when you go on American Craftsman website, is listed as replacement window.. Is that a problem for my application?
4. I gave 3/4" gap around the window.. too much?
5. If I make small roofs (overhangs) not sure the right word - will that significantly increase the chance of water penetration? this will be my first flashing.
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/ubgone/cabin/winframe_zps411d88d7.jpg
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ICC
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# Posted: 7 May 2013 00:34
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Quoting: optimistic I think I over killed it with two king studs
yes you did. only need one sill 2x too. check tables to size the header
Quoting: optimistic 2. Should I make the sill on a bit of an angle
yes
Quoting: optimistic 3. This window, when you go on American Craftsman website, is listed as replacement window
installs different from the finned windows everyone including me thought you would be using. might be easier to install for your application. usually they fit into the opening and use screws sideways into the framing to secure and have a lip or flange on the outside that goes over the siding and covers the gap. it looks like trim, sort of.. caulk used to seal.
might be best to install the new siding that was mentioned elsewhere first.
when half a job is done and then the rest later (new siding) that can cause problems with making a nice neat and weather tight job. imo it is better and easier to do everything desired in the order that makes for a best result and all at the same time.
Quoting: optimistic 4. I gave 3/4" gap around the window.. too much?
3/4 on all sides? too much. new windows w/fins use a rough out measurement of only 1/2 inch bigger in total. that is a window with a width of 32 inches has a RO of 32 1/2 inches. I would advise checking with the mfg how to measure to use these. easier to do that now than to futz around later.
Quoting: optimistic 5. If I make small roofs (overhangs) not sure the right word - will that significantly increase the chance of water penetration?
depends on the quality of the work. done right should be no difference. the question is what would be the purpose, the intent?
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optimistic
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# Posted: 7 May 2013 08:01
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1. I found header tables online but I am not sure how to read them.. It is an exterior wall, snow load is 50, and there is no story above it... Are my two 2x6 be enough? If not - what size I need?
Also - You say that sill needs to be only one also?
2. will do
3. I will see if they sell a 'new construction' window that is similar size.. I am really keen on huge windows. But if not and I do use this window - then you recommend I use wood trim around it after flashing with the tape?
siding wise - I will do live edge boards... not sure how well they will seal from water but I will have wrap under it.
Please advise proper installation of this type window.
4. I tried to check but their site is a a bit lacking.. I think craftsman is the low end of windows from Anderson so they don't put much info on their site... I don't mind buying something a bit more expensive but there isn't anything as big.
5. Will see about this.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 7 May 2013 08:10
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http://www.lowes.com/pd_110036-12697-LOWOLVYSH3672_4294772368__?productId=3729941&Ns= p_product_price|0
How about this one? I believe this is for new construction and with fins.. Right?
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ICC
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# Posted: 7 May 2013 10:40
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more later maybe
one note, when you post a picture like you did and it is soooo wide it totally overwhelms the screen on any computer I own. makes it difficult to read the text as i need to scroll sideways back and forth. be much nicer if it was cropped smaller or loaded into the forum system
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optimistic
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# Posted: 7 May 2013 11:58
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sorry about that... Mine seems fine. I will change it to a link instead
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ICC
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# Posted: 7 May 2013 13:01 - Edited by: ICC
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there are still many people who use a screen with a maximum width of 1366 or even less. pictures bigger than 800 px means that person has a lot of sideways scrolling to do on any page a large picture is posted directly. there is a lot of space lost to those ads on the left side. anyone ever click on those? large pictures throws off the entire page. using the upload links works real well and provides a thumbnail to click on. thanks for the fix it makes it a lot easier.
window size: i've found not all that much price difference between ordering a window to fit and the ones in stock. the stocked windows at big blue and orange tend to be a cheaper series, at least locally.
i like lots of window area too. two 2x6 should be good for any header you are going to use in that size bldg. put a spacer of ply or osb or foam between the two.
finned (new construction) vs replacement type. imo, the finned, installed correctly, make for a better weatherproof seal. Replacements usually rely on caulk and no flashing as the main window framing is left alone and they don't mess around with the existing exterior or interior finish, siding, stucco, drywall, etc. replacement type usually have a exterior flange that is a part of the window. they are great for their intended use replacing crappy old window with a better thermal efficiency.
did you notice the specs on that lowes window calls for a 36 wide rough in opening? and that it is a single hung, not a double?
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optimistic
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# Posted: 7 May 2013 14:01
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Thanks ICC.
I am OK with using a cheaper window on my cabin.
Questions:
1. Then this one from big blue should be good - it is new construction. Right?
2. To install this window I will need to cut the exterior/supporting studs. I think I can just cut the opening without any temp walls/bracing, right? This doesn't carry almost any weight.. roof is 2x6 with metal and 1/2" OSB. Everything is 16" OC. I also have 3/4" plywood sheating on the exterior.
I will read their installation guide tonight.
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ICC
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# Posted: 7 May 2013 17:46
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Quoting: optimistic I think I can just cut the opening without any temp walls/bracing, right?
for the size of the bldg and window you should be fine.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 7 May 2013 20:47
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Setback... Big Blue can only get me the windows in late May...
And Orange is not carrying any new construction windows in my area and only smaller ones near my land..
I have several window makers around me... I bought glass from one of them and it was dirt cheap... But I have a feeling I will ask for a new construction window and they won't have a clue what it is... I know you might find this absurd but NYC is funny like that.
I'll call tomorrow.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 8 May 2013 18:03
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After calling about a dozen places and trying to order windows.. All will take a month and none carry in stock.
My only chance is to go for the one I found first, and that is luckily in stock in my local HD - http://www.homedepot.com/p/American-Craftsman-50-Double-Hung-Buck-Windows-36-in-x-74- in-White-with-LowE3-Insulated-Glass-Argon-Gas-and-Screen-50-DH-BUCK/203157212?N=as47Z 1z0xsz2Z1z0xfdu#.UYrLbrXvvzw
I know its replacement but I have no choice...
How do I install it then?
Please advice
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ICC
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# Posted: 8 May 2013 19:57 - Edited by: ICC
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1. look at the instructions
2. and, or view the anderson video
3. it appears this replacement window does not have the exterior flange we have from our local replacement window company. it appears to just fit inside the existing window framing. so it might be best to rough in the opening and then fit 1x something in the opening as a window jamb, header and stool set first then install the replacement in there.
that will require some careful measuring and careful construction. the more perfectly level, plumb and square the new opening is made the easier it will be to make a neat and tidy installation. you'd want the opening with the finished lambs, etc very close to the size of the window. the instructions don't seem to indicate the clearances. ??? my self i'd probably want no more than a quarter inch around each side, but that is a guess as I have never seen these windows.
you may need some shims and some door and window grade foam in a can. do NOT use the regular high expansion foam. imo, the best foam is the DAP brand. it stays soft and does not exert expansion force like the regular foams. that can distort the window frame.
you'll also need some caulk
think about how the exterior trim will be fitted and place the window in the opening as far to the outside as possible. ir really would be best to install the trim you want to end up with now so make sure it is thick enough for the siding you intend to use. Hardie and LP lap siding usually needs a true inch thickness, known as 5/4.
4. i'd buy the window and become familiar with it before heading to the cabin. think thru the way you will install everything from the 2x framing to the end.
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ICC
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# Posted: 8 May 2013 20:38 - Edited by: ICC
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the video says width of window should be 1/4" less than the opening width and height of window should be 1/4" to 3/4" less than the opening height !!!
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optimistic
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# Posted: 9 May 2013 21:19
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I found several threads with people discussing the same thing I want to do. It seems that many use 1 by's for outside stops. I am not sure why I need this... I found this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MfqwtTHDRM
It seems to me that I can do this exact thing they do in this video. Make a rough opening 1/2" bigger than the size of my window all around. Flash it with Vycor. Then insert the window. Shim in all around - making it plumb. Drill pilot holes in the sides and connect it screws. Then I use the foam you recommended around it. Then I caulk it on the outside all around... then I put exterior trim around it. This how I think I need to do and not maybe how it should be done so please correct me.
Questions:
1. Where does the window sit in the opening? flush with where the wall will be finished? flushed with the exterior finish will be? in the middle??
2. I remember people saying you shouldn't caulk on the bottom. Is that true? then what do you do with that 1/2" gap there?
3. Can I use treated 2x4 as exterior trim for my window?
4. is the window trim sit on top of where the siding will go or is the siding come up until where the trim is?
5. Do I need those metal thing above the window for flashing it?
I am fully aware that the way I outlined could be completely off.. Please correct me.
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ICC
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# Posted: 9 May 2013 23:18
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Quoting: optimistic It seems to me that I can do this exact thing they do in this video. Make a rough opening 1/2" bigger than the size of my window all around. Flash it with Vycor. Then insert the window. Shim in all around - making it plumb. Drill pilot holes in the sides and connect it screws. Then I use the foam you recommended around it. Then I caulk it on the outside all around... then I put exterior trim around it.
that's pretty much it. if you insert the window into the RO instead of a finished opening (1/2" bigger than window) you then have to later finish the inside side jambs, top header and bottom sill with something of your choice. just make sure that the thickness of whatever you use for the jamb extensions and sill extension do not interfere with any window operation. for example if the bottom sash lifts from a bottom lip ensure there is room to get fingers in there to lift. most will be no problem but i had some windows years ago where adding a 3/4" sill extension interfered, had to use thinner material. hope that makes sense, probably will once you have the window in front of you.
Quoting: optimistic 1. Where does the window sit in the opening? flush with where the wall will be finished? flushed with the exterior finish will be? in the middle??
as far to the outside as prectical. that reduces flat surfaces (sill) where water can pool and then maybe leak inside.
Quoting: optimistic 2. I remember people saying you shouldn't caulk on the bottom. Is that true? then what do you do with that 1/2" gap there?
yes. leave it so water could escape. seal bottom with foam from inside though. cover outside gap with trim.
BUT the gap is only going to be 1/4" maximum. if the window is exactly 72" tall the opening should be 1/2 to 3/4" larger in TOTAL, not a 1/2" top and bottom. At the bottom there could be less than a quarter inch depending on levelness of sill framing and shims.
3. ---
if you desire, not usually necessary for trim. maybe for the sill framing in case water does make it in there someday
Quoting: optimistic 4. is the window trim sit on top of where the siding will go or is the siding come up until where the trim is?
depends on siding type. with lap siding it is usual to install trim around the window before the lap siding. the trim being. example with hardie or LP lap siding i use trim that is a full 1 inch thick, called 5/4. (it starts as 5/4 or 1 1/4 inch thick rough cut and milled to an inch thick.) thicker than the maximum thickness of where the lap siding boards overlap. thicker trim will work. then the space between the siding and trim is caulked. the space between the trim and the window caulked too.
if the siding is a flat panel of some kind (T1-11 or other 4x8 panel siding)) then the trim is usually installed after the siding panels. in this case thinner trim is usually used. 3/4 inch would work
Quoting: optimistic 5. Do I need those metal thing above the window for flashing it?
if you mean a rain drip cap that does help a lot where it rains a lot. Depends on the roof overhang too. if the roof has good overhang (16" +) and if the window top is quite high it could be left off.
think like water, the way it falls and flows while doing all this.
read every word of the instructions and follow. some vinyl windows specify only to shim at the corners, in the middle shims on the sill can be trouble with some windows. i do not know about those .
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ICC
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# Posted: 9 May 2013 23:43
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primary thing is to not rush this, you probably want to get the window in this weekend. i'd advise okay, as long as you have time to sit there with the window in hand and think the process through start to end. understand every aspect before cutting the hole in the wall. if that means taking the window up this weekend and thinking it through onsite and then installing the window next trip, that's fine. it's only a week or so delay. that's nothing compared to the length of time you will have the property isn't it?
i've made most of my mistakes when in a hurry and when i didn't draw it all out on paper first if it was something new or different in some way. once you've done one or two it gets easier if all the details are the same.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 10 May 2013 08:24
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Thank you so much from your help ICC. I ordered the windows from HD so there is no chance they'll be gone by next next weekend. Once I pick them up I will open them here and look at them.
Questions:
You wrote: "you then have to later finish the inside side jambs, top header and bottom sill with something of your choice"
first - what is the role of jambs? they just help hold it in place? If yes then where and how do I put them?
Also, when you say 'finish' them you mean putting flashing tape on them?
Q3 response - Can you give as link to what trim you will use? Because I thought that trim is just to cover the flashing around for aesthetics which is why I wanted to just put 2x4 around.
More questions:
1. should I make the rough in from 2x6 or from 2x4? My wall is 2x4..
2. I saw that Orange and Blue carry products for flashing - pvc sill pan and so on. I would be more than happy to pay for any 'extra' things if they can make it a bit easier and better for me as I never flashed before. Can you recommend what to us?
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ICC
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# Posted: 10 May 2013 11:08 - Edited by: ICC
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The pictures may illustrate illustrate a few things. not the best photography mind you. these were finned windows so i didn't bother to show any exterior shots
keep in mind you are doing a hybrid installation. you could flash the RO with a inch or so wrapping to the exterior existing wall surface. that would seal and pretty much eliminate the chance of water getting thru.
the first picture is a new window installed in a flashed rough out taken from the inside. (for the curious this is a reside job with added 2 1/2" rigid foam on the exterior and new windows and doors. )
the second picture is the same type of window, but in a different room, and with a 3/4" oak jamb installed (prestained after cutting to size, one coat flat clear coat). inside trim has not been installed yet. note the 3/4 oak covers up some of the vinyl window framing as compared to the first picture.
the third picture is exterior on another house with windows done the same way, showing the one inch thick trim around the windows and door along with the lap siding. note the trim is thicker than the lapped siding. window glass reflecting on the right and door on the left
picture four is another trimmed window
the trim is nailed directly over the window fin and the flashing. the lap siding is nailed to the wall sheathing and studs and butts to the edge of the trim. then caulked
flashed window interior
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window jamb extension
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exterior trim and lap siding
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more trim and lap siding
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ICC
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# Posted: 10 May 2013 11:22 - Edited by: ICC
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the picture with the flashing showing is taped over the rough framing. (2x4 in this case with extra 2 1/2" foam on the outside)
the picture showing the oak jamb is what i call 'finished' that is what the homeowner sees, but the 2 1/2 wide trim that covers the edge of the jamb and the gap between the drywall and the jamb has not been installed yet. the jambs are cosmetic.
the window is positioned in the opening much the same as the replacement type you will use.
Quoting: optimistic 1. should I make the rough in from 2x6 or from 2x4? My wall is 2x4..
same as wall, unless you were going to add foam sheets on the outside or inside.
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ICC
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# Posted: 10 May 2013 12:43 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: optimistic 2. I saw that Orange and Blue carry products for flashing - pvc sill pan and so on. I would be more than happy to pay for any 'extra' things if they can make it a bit easier and better for me as I never flashed before. Can you recommend what to us?
they do work, makes it easier to get the bottom corners done good. never used them myself but should work. but so does the stuff like Vycor if done well. and even Vycor sells preformed corners
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ICC
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# Posted: 10 May 2013 13:25 - Edited by: ICC
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not a good diagram but hopefully it delivers the idea for the layout of the trim boards. the btm trim is only as wide as the window. the sides start at the top level of the window and extend down past the ends of the btm trim. the top trim covers the tops of each side trim. think water, this helps keep it flowing to the outside.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 11 May 2013 10:45
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ICC - this is some fantastic info. Thank you.
From what I am picking up - I want to flash the RO and use a sill pan as it will increase the chance I do a good job. Can you recommend which one to use?
Can you break down the process that I should take to install this window now that we know what I am using? From when I have the RO to when I put the outside trim to cover the flashing.
Just to recap the points - my wall is 2x4, I want to flash it with tape and sill pan, the inside finish wall will have 1/4" foam sheet on the studs and then wood panels which are 3/4" thick. The outside will have (eventually) tyvek and live edge board siding
that should be about 3/4" as well.
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ICC
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# Posted: 12 May 2013 17:42
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Whilehelping a friend of a friend install some windows in a barn over the weekend I couldn't help but be reminded of this thread. I had some thoughts. Some of them negative. I don't know that I can write out in detail the steps you would need to follow. Once the rough out is done finned windows almost install themselves. Well not quite but easier than doing these that are not meant for new construction. These are meant to go inside an existing framework, you don't have one and from your questions I can tell you are somewhat lost. I like to help people DIY but I am not comfortable with being the at distance tutor on something like this. That is the conclusion I came to over the past couple of days.
To be honest I think the best thing to do about windows for your cabin would be to bite the time bullet and order the finned new construction windows, or use a window that you can find in stock with integral new construction fins. It is so much easier for a novice builder. You can find lots of instructions online. It is possible to use the replacement windows but it means more work and in reality produces a less satisfactory end product.
The only reason replacement windows like these are made is to make it possible to replace existing old windows without having to do major renovation or repair work on the exterior and interior walls. Someone in an old house with crappy single pane loose fitting windows can retrofit these and have a more energy efficient and more comfortable home with the least amount of reconstruction.
For example it is impossible to use finned 'new' construction windows to replace old windows in a house that has stucco or brick faced exterior walls without major work. The fins are nailed to the exterior sheathing which is under an inch or more of wire and stucco or a brick facade.
Order the finned new construction type. So it will take a little time for them to arrive. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of time you will be enjoying your place. You can still do the rough framing in the interim. You could leave the sheathing uncut or temporarily nail and block it in place.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 14 May 2013 19:41
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I want to proceed with this windows....
I read on a couple of places that people have done what I did before and although not optimal. They are ok....
If you can tell me how you will do it I will appreciate it.
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ICC
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# Posted: 14 May 2013 23:08
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Quoting: optimistic I read on a couple of places that people have done what I did before and although not optimal. They are ok....
any pictures of what they did? Links?
questions
1.. how thick is the exterior paneling on the cabin?
2. how thick is the frame of the window? it's 30-something x 70-something. how thick is the window frame?
3. how far is the hole through the side where the screws secure the window to the exterior face of the window frame?
4. looking at the exterior face of the window how wide is the frame? the non movable part that gets screwed in to the 2x's framing the cutout.
I'll say I have a dislike for window installations that rely solely on caulk for rain sealing. caulk does fail. and if i was being asked to quote a price for installing these windows, at this point in my life I would turn the job down. But if you can answer those questions i have an idea of how I would do this if I had to.
Are you fairly clear on how to go about framing for the window? For the best results you need a circular saw and maybe a reciprocating saw, or at least a good hand saw. cutting cleanly and squarely through the studs that need to be cut will make the result more satisfactory. You could cut from the outside with the circular saw and then carefully mark a cut line on the inside and cut from that side to sever the 2x4's.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 15 May 2013 07:31
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Thanks ICC. I have a lot of respect for people who want to do it right and I appreciate your helpfulness.
Now for your questions:
1. Right now there is 3/4" plywood and something that looks like t1-11 on top of that.
2. the window is 3.25" . I know that this is the standard thickness of double hung windows.
3. I do not know.... I will bring these windows home probably tonight so I will take photos for you.
4. Again, I am not sure... I will find out today.
There are some specification here:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/American-Craftsman-50-Double-Hung-Buck-Windows-36-in-x-74- in-White-with-LowE3-Insulated-Glass-Argon-Gas-and-Screen-50-DH-BUCK/203157212?N=as47Z 1z0xsz2Z1z0xfdu#specifications
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ICC
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# Posted: 15 May 2013 11:02 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: optimistic 1. Right now there is 3/4" plywood and something that looks like t1-11 on top of that.
that's odd. maybe it's 3/4" T1-11, it is plywood based if you really do have 3/4 ply and then something else on method is not likely to work, but it was a 'cheap shot' second or third rate idea at best.
all those links have methods that will work as long as the caulk holds out. some are just worse than others. most people believe the manufacturers when they say the caulk is 15, 20, 25, 30, whatever years caulk. that may be and that may not be. or the caulk may last but the wood deteriorate. all it takes is a wee little area for water to start having its bad effects.
you need a window sill that slopes outward and down. this is one of the stumbling blocks. you have to build that. it also needs to overhang the siding below the window that you want to eventually install. one problem on top of another.
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ICC
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# Posted: 15 May 2013 12:42 - Edited by: ICC
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it's one thing offering advice and seeing it sometimes ignored while someone uses their own method that may have problems arise in the future. I can live with that even though that can be frustrating. but it is a whole other thing to be asked for advice on how to do something the hard way, the way that takes more effort and skill, the way that is less satisfactory, etc. I can not bring myself to do that. sorry.
methods in those links will work for a time. if the caulk is monitored and maintained as needed it may be okay for 'just a cabin' as some say and think.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 15 May 2013 13:50
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Opti... I've only been monitoring this thread loosely as it seems ICC has been providing excellent advice.
While I completely agree with everything ICC says, I am one of those people who looks at their project as, to some degree, "just a cabin". So when I put my windows in I used new-construction windows, screwed through the flange and T1-11, into the underlying studs. I caulked them heavily using OSI Quad, and then trimmed them with PT 1x's, and caulked again. After a year they're still very tight, as I have not finished the interior walls yet so I can see if any are leaking (which they're not). I'm comfortable they will last the remainder of my useable lifetime, but they will need monitoring and maintenance. But my whole cabin is stained wood, so everything is going need m&m.
On cabins like yours and mine this is probably the easiest method although, as noted by ICC, not the best. If this was my house I wouldn't do it this way, but that's true of many things with my cabin.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 15 May 2013 17:25
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Thanks PA.
This is what I think I will do... I still have a few hours to decide though.
Replacement window plan - make the rough opening from 1x6 - as a normal window - 3/4" larger on sides and 1/2" larger on top and bottom. Then I will flash the sill with vycor and leave a nice flap of wrap under it for my future house wrap.
Then i will install a 3/4" x 3/4" quarter round made from composite - on the outer edge of the window for the blind stop. Nailed and caulked with OSI. Next I will place the window from the inside, applying nice amount of OSI on the inside of the quarter round. Shim it with composite shims and nail it once it is plumb. Next I will fill the gap with the DAP foam can. Once it is dried I will cut it and install a 1x2 ceder strip which if you follow the numbers will be flush with the 1x6 frame on the inside which will make it look nice and finished. I will then apply another bead of caulk on the outside corner between the window and quarter round. Once it dries I will paint it with good exterior primer and paint. I will then flash the jambs and header. Finally I will install 1x6 treated wood trim around the outside and put the wrap flap under it so protect it form the UV...
I won't be finishing my walls soon so I can test if water is coming in.
If you think this is bad idea - like really really bad.... I might just dump it and order the flange windows. But if this will work I rather do that..
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