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paulz
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 15:22
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I expect to need a nailer for building my cabin and need a brief education. Do most people have both a framing nailer and a finish nailer? Can a framing nailer be used to attach sheathing, plywood etc.? Framing nailer come in different angles, why? What about air power and electric?
Basically at this point I want to be able to frame my cabin and get the sheathing attached.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 18:19
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I have two Paslode cordless gas powered nailers, a framing and a finish. The framing nailer will do both framing and plywood. Well made, effective units. I'm off grid so operating a compressor is problematic, though they do make gasoline powered compressors but they are pricey.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 18:23
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The 30-34 degree nailers use the paper collated nails (such as Paslode), the 20-22 degree take full head plastic collated nails (Duo Fast, Porter-Cable FR350). 28 degree is wire collated (Bostitch). Brand is the main difference between angles. The head size of the tool may dictate why a certain angle was chosen back when the company's first nailers were made.
I have n old Senco framing nailer that will take up to 3 1/2" nails as well as an old Bostitch. You can sheath with them by using the correct length full head nails. My nailers are a few generations old and do not have depth control. I believe all modern or at least all good modern nailers have a depth control. I have not looked as the oldies still work for me. The depth control can make it easier when nailing sheathing as nail heads driven in too far (below sheathing panel surface) do not count according to code. Crushing the wood fibers like that destroys some of the structural strength.
I have an equally old Senco finish nailer that uses up to 2" nails. It is lighter and easier to use than the full size 2 1/2 inch finish guns.
I also have two Senco staplers; two different widths.
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Air powered are more common. Paslode pioneered the fuel powered "hoseless" type. I like them for ready to go, easy use but do not like being tied to the necessity of their fuel cartridges. Never seen an electric one other than cordless battery types. If you already have the batteries for other cordless tools they might be something to look at.
When I first bought a nailer pneumatic was all there was. Plus I already had a compressor anyhow. Not sure what I'd do today; I do like the idea of no hose, no compressor. ???
Improper or careless use can result in driving a nail or two through the hand that is not holding the nail gun before you can say dammit.
A study of apprentice carpenters found that:
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2 out of 5 were injured using a nail gun during their 4 years of training.
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1 out of 5 were injured twice.
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1 out of 10 were injured three or more times.
There are many other hazards and possible injuries from a nail gun. Hearing loss is another danger because of the tool operation noise. Too late for me but I now use high quality ear muffs when using most power tools.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 18:29
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The FUN thing about the gas nailers is that they go KAPOW!
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Jeremy
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 20:39
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What type of nailer would you use for board and batton siding?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 21:21
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Finish nailers are too small for any framing, plywood (except cabinets), or exterior board and bat or trim work. The nails are too small. For board and bat I'd use a framing nailer with 8 or 10 d (or box) nails.
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Smawgunner
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 21:46
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I'll say this,...once I got a nailer, my world opened up. I've got a nice Dewalt framing nailer and a finishing nailer and they're the best tools I own. A must have imho.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 22:03
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Finish nailers are for finishing interior work; base and door/window trim and the like. I used to do a lot of that.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 22:47 - Edited by: Don_P
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My Dad didn't own a nail gun till after he retired, elbows shot he finally broke down and got a paslode cordless. After it got stolen I bought him another and set him back up with some of my duplicate tools, as did the community. It has been used mercilessly by a fine group of old timers fixing up houses and trailers that should have been torn down and building wheelchair ramps.
One of the first big purchases I made was a 5HP compressor and nail guns. Growing up I nailed off miles of sheathing and knew it was a waste of labor time. Being free of a hose and not having to reload I can, or could, hand frame most things close to as fast as a gun but when it comes to nailing off sheathing it's a no brainer. A gun is not a must have but they are convenient. I prefer the wire collation of Bostitch and the nails are readily available in my area so I've stuck with them although I've used a number of other guns and have been generally happy with most. I don't like paper when it gets wet and plastic flying around always seems to find my eye before the day is out. The wire collated nails can take dropping, wetting and clips being balled up in my tool bags, so it works for me. The Bostitch pancake compressor combo kit with a framer and a 16 guage finish nailer is nice. The compressor will run off most generators which is a struggle for most compressors.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 22:58
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Don_P- is a small pancake compressor enough to keep up with a framing nailer when you are doing repetitive work- nailing off sheathing? Or do you get ahead of it?
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 20 May 2014 23:04
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I have a lot of Bostich. It's just because there are a lot of them around and relatively cheap. I have three compressors, one with a five HP Honda engine, one electric pancake, and a larger volume electric. The pancake will run with the Honda 2000I quite well. It will keep up with one person, but not two, then I use the gas engine compressor. I use a couple siding coil nailers and couple coil framing. The coil framing can also shoot siding nail, but has troubles not punching dents into T1-11, so the siding nailers for that. They are a lot lighter too. I also have several Bostich finish nailers, very handy.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 21 May 2014 00:11
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I have all the air nailers for everything. The ones I use the most have to be the framing nailer and finish nailer. My framing nailer is the 21' full round head (there is a clipped head too) and I can adjsut depth also will shoot up to 3.5" nails too. I have them as short as 2" nails. By finish nailed is the 16 gauge and will shoot up to 2", down to 1". I di have a siding/fencing/pallet nailer. It uses coiled nails. Up to 2", except the ones I find are all ring shank and it will not drive a 2" ring shank nail, too much resistant, the head bends over.
If you have to get a single nailer, it must be a framing nailer. Second nailer to add to the list would be finish nailer. You can adjust framing for siding, roof sheeting etc. by buying shorter nails and then setign depth lower and turning regulator down on compressor.
I have in my arsenal:
Porter Cable framing nailer
Senco fencing/siding/palle nailer
Porter cable finish nailer (16 gauge)
Porter cable brad nailer (18 gauge)
Bostitch coil roofing nailer
Porter Cable crown stapler
Bostich PN50 palm nailer
Bostitch PN100 palm nailer
I had no air nailers before building my cabin. Now I wonder how I ever got along without them.
My compressor is a diaphragm type, 6 callon from Porter Cable that runs off my Honda EU2000i and doest it with ease in eco mode. The piston type need much more start up energy. Takwe this in consideration wqhen buying.
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paulz
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# Posted: 21 May 2014 00:32
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Quoting: bldginsp The FUN thing about the gas nailers is that they go KAPOW!
Noise is a concern for me since I have to work weeknights, weekends, have neighbors a few acres away and a heck of an echo through the valley. So the air powered ones are quieter?
What size and type nails for basic framing and for sheathing?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 21 May 2014 00:51
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I would not call any power nailer quiet.
Compressors also make noise, especially the smaller ones with what they call an "oil-less" or "oil free" compressor.
Nailing schedule...
NOTE: The nailing schedule specifies nails by length and shank diameter. Mostly these are what are called "common" nails of the variety driven by hand. Almost all nails made for nail guns have thinner shanks and are 20 - 25% weaker in shear. They are more like 'box' nails. Figure on using 5 to 6 air gun nails instead of 4 common. It is best to read the length and diameter and not go by the 6D, 8D, 16D appellation. Don't get carried away as too many nails too close together can weaken the wood.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 21 May 2014 08:54 - Edited by: bldginsp
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The argument has been made that the old nailing schedule is less relevant today than it was in the past. Because we now sheath with plywood from mud sill to top plate, that becomes the primary wall connection (plus clips), so the nailed joinery at intervening framing joints (without clips) is less of a contributor to overall strength than the sheathing, whereas before we built plywood boxes with clips, it was of more overall importance. Also, the quality of lumber is far lesser today than in the past and does not join as well with standard nailed joints. Point is- focus on what makes your building strong- nail the plywood well. As an inspector I'm less concerned about the specifics of nail diameter than I am about seeing that the plywood shear path is well constructed and consistently nailed. I'd rather see box nails consistently nailing the plywood than D nails that are spaced unevenly, splitting plywood, etc. Also, as MtDon pointed out, nailing plywood too deep severely ruins the connection.
One thing that plywood box and clip construction does well despite poor wood quality is to make rigid structural panels and an overall rigid building, if well constructed. Nailed joints such as joist to sill, or rafter to top plate, even stud to sole or top plate are still important but play less of a role in the design than they did before plywood and clips.
I wonder what Don_P thinks about this.
So- to those of you wondering what nail size to use, and how many, I'd say follow the old nailing schedule for nail length and number per joint, but don't be concerned about diameter as much as ensuring that your nailing is consistent, not too deep in plywood, and you are not splitting frame lumber or plywood.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 21 May 2014 10:14
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I see staples used in some areas, what are the advantages/disadvantages?
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 21 May 2014 10:52
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Not sure on the overall picture on staples, but I do know that they came under close scrutiny in Florida after one or the other hurricane, and the conclusion was that they are approved for use on roof plywood so long as you use enough of the right length of staple. IMSMR (if memory serves me right) WSID (which sometimes it doesn't).
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Don_P
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# Posted: 21 May 2014 23:27
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bldginsp;
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, plywood and osb can certainly make for a rigid building. A good part of the framing nails we use simply hold parts in alignment during assembly, the nails from plate to stud are a good example. Some do another job, for instance the nails from rim to joist end help prevent rolling. That restraint is specified based on the joist thickness to depth ratio, sometimes requiring midspan blocking as well. Some connections you have to think beyond the nailing schedule, girder connections in the table work for a dropped girder but are woefully inadequate for a flush girder where the joists hang on the side plies of a built up girder but the girder needs to be well connected together to transmit the load to the inner plies and act as a single unit.
Nails, staples, screws, lags and bolts are all "dowel type fasteners" and are covered in the NDS (National Design Specification for Wood Construction) one of the building code referenced documents. It contains a good number of pages of tables giving the allowable design loads for those connectors in both withdrawal and in shear. The awc.org connections calculator gives the same results as the tables (and you don't have to buy the manual)
For nails in shear, which is the best way to use most of these connectors they need to penetrate through the side member (for instance the plywood sheathing) and then into the main member (the stud or framing) at least 10 diameters to achieve rated shear strength. From there the shear strength revolves around nail diameter and density of the wood. So diameter of the nail is a major part of the equation. One way to get around that is to use more nails of a lower diameter when substituting. This is where the tables or connection calc can be used. If you are looking at a code table and it is calling for a common nail, look up its' design strength in that application. Then look up the design strength of the nailgun box nail you're shooting. You can quickly figure out how many more times to pull the trigger to get the same strength. One place I use this fairly often is in a critical framing application, the rafter to ceiling joist heeljoint table. I figure out what the code table is asking for and then develop the same strength in that joint using my size gun nails.
When a nail goes into withdrawal the head can come into play. Withdrawal is a function of wood density, nail diameter, and depth of penetration. But if the head can pull through that becomes the weak link. The nail may have great withdrawal strength but if the head pulls thru that is what controls. That is why clipped heads have faded away and where staples suck. If the staple is across grain and doesn't bite into the sheathing then it can be ok. That is too variable in the field so they have faded for most structural uses.
One other thing on dowel type fasteners, screws especially. The tables specify the strength and ductility of the steel used. Most off the shelf screws nowadays are brittle, they have a head that is hard enough we don't spin them out like the soft ductile screws of old, and they have good withdrawal strength, but they are lousy in shear. They tend to break rather than bend under a shear load. One thing you want out of a connection is a nice, slow, noisy and very visible ductile failure as opposed to a sudden brittle failure when a joint is overloaded. We want warning before failure. You should see an astm or esr number on a box of fasteners, don't frame with deck or drywall screws... I don't care what homie on homes does.
Then there's the problem of when we step outside of prescriptive an unknowingly design on our own. The girder between the heaved pier and floor in the heved pier thread is an example. Pretty common in DIY circles but well outside of anything adressed in the codebook. There is nothing keeping the girder from laying over, no restraint, and if you look at the temporary diagonal in the pic it has been popped out by the rolling girder. These details get glossed over when we don't think through things and that is where the failures happen.
I've rambled till bedtime  Crap, gotta go rescue the chopsaw outta the truck, just started to rain.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 21 May 2014 23:34
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Thanks Don. I think we kind of went beyond the original question, but that's OK.
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