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fthurber
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2010 21:19 - Edited by: fthurber
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As I have noted before I have had some quality problems with Lowes and Home Depot; maybe it is just me and maybe it is just my local stores; I don't know. Others have done well at these places but personally I have had some bad experiences.
The latest problem is with Lowe's sonatubes. My son and I bought the tubes from Lowes and used them a few weeks ago to start a new cabin. We poured the concrete and set the bolt in one but the next day it had burst and flopped over. The next day we used really dry thick concrete but the same thing happened.
These lousy tubes were made out of thin non-water proof materials (compare them to the local good tube in the attached picture). Not only did I waste a weekend but I had get the damn tubes out of the ground; I am thinking if dumping them in the Lowes' lot.
In disgust I went to the local builder's supply place (owned by locals and run by locals). (I should have gone to them in the first place) Their tubes worked beautifully even for wet concrete.
I have attached pictured of the crap tube from Lowes and the thicker waterproof tubes from the local building supply store.
I have also attached pictures of a flopped over tube from Lowes. Never again will I spend a dime with those guys. This is the final straw.
In my experience the one and only advantage of the big box stores is that they are open off hours. In my experience the quality stinks and so does the price when you consider that you have buy the crap twice. And the help is horrible at the Big Box stores compared to the local stores; minimum / low wage guys who have to endure Dilbert-like management and know / care little about building.
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fasenuff
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# Posted: 21 Nov 2010 02:56
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Personally, I have always had good luck with Lowes, Home Depot, and Menards.I can call and have lumber delivered and know that I will have less culls than I would with the local mom and pop store.
What mix did you use for the concrete?(A mix that has less gravel will have more slump or be more "runny") Did you pour in the concrete or shovel it in?(Pour concrete fast into a form can over stress the form and weaken it) How tall were the forms? How much of that height was out of the ground and how was it suported?(The higher you go with those cheap tubes the more you need support on the outside of the forms) Was there any rebar in the tubes?(Rebar on the inside will help support the concrete and let it "slump" less)
I have used those same tubes in a 2' diameter by 6' tall and never had a blow out with them. I have also had to pour fairly wet concrete in them so it would flow in around the steel easier. But I did re-inforce them with a few 2x4's and tie wire. The weight of the concrete and the outward pressure is greater at the bottom of the form and where they would be most likely to blowout. A collapse like you appear to have had makes me wonder if they were suported any at all. Did you have ANY supports on the outside of the tubes? Any 2x4's going from the tube to the ground at an angle? It appears from your pics that the tubes "folded" not blew out. I would even guess it happened atleast a foot out of the ground? That suggests a lack of support. Go tall enough with steel tubes and even they may topple in the middle. On sonatubes I will use 4 2x4's around the top and angled outwards from the bottom to both hold in place and support the tube. And if it is very tall I will also put atleast 3 2x4's wired to the sides for extra strenght. I do this wether using Lowes brand or the high dollar Sonatube brand tubes. Did you have anything like that?
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fthurber
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# Posted: 21 Nov 2010 10:58
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I used a very dry mix in the second tube and it still failed. One tube burst and one tub flopped. The cement was shoveled in.
Tubes were supported at the bottom but had about 2 feet free standing. As far as supporting the outside of the tube I don't see why I would have to do it. The good tubes I got from the local building supply store (more than a mom & pop but locally owned) worked perfectly even with runny concrete. Why bother with all the elaborate bracing when I simply have to buy quality in the first place? The crap from Lowes failed. Simple solution for me; never ever ever buy from Lowes or Home Depot again; problem solved.
You can see in the first photo the quality different between the two tubes. The good tub is thicker and waterproof (and even an inch taller!).
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fasenuff
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# Posted: 21 Nov 2010 11:37
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The following is from Sonotube's site.
14. What are the basic requirements for bracing Sonotube forms? The tube must be securely braced to hold it in position, top and bottom, as well as making sure it will not bend or break in the middle. Generally, lengths up to 4 meters are usually only braced at the top and bottom. Lengths over 4 meters usually require additional bracing in the middle of the form.
That from the manufacturer of the "name brand" tube. Any time you pour concrete in forms the should be braced if for no other reason than to keep them straight and plumb.not bracing sonotube forms is asking for trouble. Also the site states that the concrete should be vibrated or tapped well to avoid air pockets which is where water will form and the tube will ultimatey fail by blow out or fold. They also state the tube should be coated inside with a release agent which also will help with repelling water.
You can buy the heavier tube and try to not brace like they suggest and possibly not have a failure but why gamble. If the manufacturer of the heavier tube says you might have a failure if you do not brace, do not coat the inside, or do not vibrate there is a reason and that reason will be more true for the lighter tube.
Personally I do not want to have to go through what you did and have to get out the setup concrete and tube and pour again. Also I would like it to stay where I put it.
I feel for you having to deal with it and all. A learning lesson to say the least.
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fthurber
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# Posted: 21 Nov 2010 18:46
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Why should I buy the cheesy tubes from Lowes that I have to brace and coddle and apply a water repellent and hope it all works when I can just get a quality tubes and not mess with all the stuff? I think that the good tubes were a dollar more but I did not have to replace them or brace them or spray waterproofing on them.
BTW I did brace the tubes so they dried upright and the good tube did great without all the remedial work.
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fasenuff
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# Posted: 21 Nov 2010 18:51
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The "quality" tubes manufacturer is the one who says to do those things. Do or don't. Your choice.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2010 14:15
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I'm one of those defenders of big box stores, especially when it comes to things with a brand name on them. Does anyone really think that the big box stores could really continue to sell an inferior product over a lengthy time? They sell a lot of those tubes where I live, not just to homeowners. A lot go out through the commercial desk.
Did you complain to your Lowe's store? I know small contractors who use Lowe's and HD as their main supplier. I do not believe any of them would give repeat business for products that are inferior.
Quoting: SquidLips ...apply a water repellent...
what kind?
maybe that was not a good idea.
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fthurber
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2010 17:08 - Edited by: fthurber
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Sure and there is a ton of shoddy construction. If you are building a house for someone else then there is little motivation to use the best materials and a lot of motivation to do it as cheap as possible. At this point I would only buy from a big box if I had to build a dog house or container for garbage cans and I had to build it really quick.
A lot of people just accept crap quality; it has become the norm. I know a guy at work who was complaining that his weed whacker died after a couple of seasons. I told him to buy a Stihl for a local saw shop but he would rather get some garbage at a big box store because of the short term savings.
As far as manufacturers protecting the brand by not letting a Big Box store use the name for a cheaper model all I can say is HA! Short term greed at the expense of long-term viability is rife in corporate America because executive compensation is geared toward immediate profits. And the bigger the corporation they more greedy they are.
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fthurber
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2010 17:16
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Quoting: MtnDon Does anyone really think that the big box stores could really continue to sell an inferior product over a lengthy time?
I have had problems with Home Depot for about 15 years. Maybe it is my local or maybe I am rough on stuff but everything I got from them broke. Maybe this is why Home Depot started to lose business.
I even had a problem with a big expensive box of stainless deck screws; they were so soft that I could not drive them. Maybe there was small print that said I had to put them in a forge and properly temper them ;^). Maybe it was just a bad batch but personally I try to avoid them.
Maybe your local Home Depot is better; I can only say what my personal experience was at one store.
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