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LoonWhisperer
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# Posted: 14 Nov 2019 18:04 - Edited by: LoonWhisperer
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Thanks again to everyone that responded to my earlier thread regarding the "cabin" we inherited. We are better prepared to speak to the contractors now.
I thought I would kick off a new project thread and ask more specific questions as they come up and hopefully by the end we will have ourselves something cozy, safe and warm. Will add pics as things progress.
Attached is the "before" picture as reference. It is a converted 29x29 garage which we will mostly be tearing down and rebuilding to a 20x20, keeping the original trusses that will leave room for a good sized porch.
So, starting with the existing cement foundation which will be replaced I received a rough estimate yesterday from the cement guy on a 20x20 pad. Gravel base and 5" deep. He said, all in and construction ready around $9K CAD. No insulation or radiant heat (Radiant heat add $3K)
Seems high doesn't it?
After reading a number of threads here I gathered that going with piers would be cheaper and if done properly (insulated, below frost line etc.) would work for us.
So for a 20x20 how many piers should I expect to see in the quote? And 2' above the ground, correct? Will be looking to close it off from bugs and critters underneath and at some point add skirting.
Thanks in advance.
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jsahara24
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# Posted: 14 Nov 2019 18:54 - Edited by: jsahara24
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I would say if you decided to go with piers you should have 4 per side for a 20' length. Its really all about the beam to use to carry the load, but 4 per side is safe. Then use joists that can span the 20' width and you can avoid a third row of piers. As for height above the ground, I believe you need pressure treated wood for anything closer than 18" to the ground. There is not necessarily a correct height, its based on preference and your site grading.
Good luck...
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 14 Nov 2019 18:56
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Gee wiz, I paid half that for my slab, got my own insulation though (via Kijiji) The grading & gravel work was already done though.
I bought the Radiant plumbing etc with the pump & controls etc first to install that. Then I bought the Takagi later once I had a building. My Radiant kit was quite decent $ (cabin is 20x24) , bought it from http://www.radiantcompany.com/
I suppose excavation, removal of concrete slab, gravel base etc s worth some coin, probably 1/3-1/2.
There is a company in Pembroke, Tom Mix Concrete which mixes what you need on site and saves some cash. Seems there are franchises so maybe one close to you. http://tommixmobileconcrete.com/ If you search "Tom Mix Concrete" Ontario you should get hits, there's one in Essex County.
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LoonWhisperer
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# Posted: 14 Nov 2019 20:50
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jsahara24
This provides an excellent reference. Thank you.
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LoonWhisperer
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# Posted: 14 Nov 2019 20:52
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Quoting: Steve_S There is a company in Pembroke, Tom Mix Concrete
Will check that out Steve. Thanks! Generally though, piers are a cheaper option, correct?
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Nate R
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# Posted: 14 Nov 2019 21:33 - Edited by: Nate R
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Depends. Is that quote includnig them removing existing slab?
I paid $4K USD to have an insulated 20x30 slab formed and poured. They did 12" around the edge, 4" thick in the middle.
I paid another $2100 for someone to bring in gravel for a driveway, a couple loads of sand to level out the grade for my slab, and remove a few pine stumps.
Also, I'm skeptical on all the work and effort to reuse those trusses. I'm looking at... $1900 or so for 20' trusses for my 20x30 structure...Not THAT much money.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2019 06:09 - Edited by: Steve_S
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Yes Piers are cheaper than a slab, obviously a lot less concrete & work but there is a trade off with... year round use and then having to insulate the floor (no fiberglass or anything that holds any moisture at all). I would very seriously reconsider that.
You keep on about those trusses, I have to point out that, that s likely a False Economy when all boiled down. They are used and will likely get some cracks & breaks etc as disassembly progresses. Nail Holes & possible rot / soft spots will be all over. They will all likely need some attention of one sort or another and figure 20-25% loss.
2x10 Ridge Board and 2x8 Rafters @ 24oc make up my roof @ 9/12 pitch topped with 3/4" roof sheathing and then the rest (remember I have a Cool Roof) which saves at least 25% of my heating & cooling energy and makes it so much more liveable.
You can play with roof designs and measurements here to give you an idea of how, material amounts so you can do some fast math with local prices.
https://www.blocklayer.com/roof/gableeng.aspx
Suggestion resulting from Lessons Learned.
I have a Loft (storage) so the peak is @ 7'10" up there and that's fine for storage BUT ! it is a PITA on head banging and limits usability. I "Should'a, Could'a, Would'a", used 2x6x10 wall studs to provide a knee wall and a higher ceiling overall. The cost diff would not have been significant and would have provided some benefits as well as a visual twist too. I do have Cathedral Ceilings, no "ceiling fan" as it isn't needed but changing the high light is a treat (thank goodness for LED's lasting forever).
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Brettny
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2019 07:43
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A floating slab vs one with frost walls can realy varry the price. A floating slab is the cheapest but may not be code in your area.
Either way if its a seasonal/weekend cabin you will never heat up thousands of pounds of concrete in a day. If you have utilities and keep the slab temp up then this wont matter.
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LoonWhisperer
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2019 14:06
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Quoting: Nate R Depends. Is that quote includnig them removing existing slab?
Thanks for your feedback. He seemed to imply that it included removal, prep and replacement. Not insulated though. Would definitely get this clearly spelled out in the formal quote.
Interesting about the cost of the trusses. I figured new ones would set us back more. Will have to weigh that more carefully.
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LoonWhisperer
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2019 14:20 - Edited by: LoonWhisperer
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Steve_S
Thanks Steve!
With the slab, we do still intend to get a detailed quote so still in play but where I am unclear is regarding insulating the slab. Is that done by the cement dude or something that we put on top? What material is preferred?
Regarding the trusses, Nate raised the same concern and your points about the damaged material etc are good ones. We will have to follow up on this recommendation from the contractor and see if there really is any value.
What we have heard is there is value from a bylaw and/or township perspective of retaining some portion (like a wall) of the existing structure. This was reiterated to us by contractors at the Fall Cottage Show. 
I think we are going to forego the loft to hopefully save some $.
That link is helpful and has been added to the journal. 
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LoonWhisperer
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2019 14:29
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Quoting: Brettny A floating slab vs one with frost walls can realy varry the price. A floating slab is the cheapest but may not be code in your area.
Another point I will have clarified. Thanks Brettny
And we are leaning towards this being a retreat we can hit up in any season. During the winter it would likely be on a weekend/short stay basis. Longer stays during the warmer weather. Looking for the best foundation/build for that scenario. Cheers!
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2019 15:59
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The concrete guys can do the foam, it goes underneath and out the sides as "wings" to prevent ground frost penetration underneath the slab. Or once all levelled out you can do the foam , set the rebar & mesh in place and they can pour the concrete on top & finish it.
OI got a whole bunch of 4" DOW Corning Roofmate R20 from Cohen & Cohen in Ottawa for $10 a piece, 2'x2'x4'. Code minimum for us is R10. Remember we are just a couple of hundred clicks apart.
Photo's discussion etc in my original thread here http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/6_5643_0.html
PS the "trick" with keeping a wall, it becomes a Repair not a fresh build and that can be fiddled with if you have a good inspector. I built as a year round Hunt Camp / Recreational Property...
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LoonWhisperer
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2019 17:23 - Edited by: LoonWhisperer
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Quoting: Steve_S it goes underneath and out the sides
LOL and here I was thinking I finally found a process I could actually take on myself. In this article they insulate on top of the concrete. DOH! https://www.thespruce.com/how-to-insulate-garage-floors-1398131
Good score on the insulation and I'm not adverse to travelling to get a deal if that is what you are implying. In my neck of the woods, there is one local option for materials - Home Hardware. Timber Mart is next closest.
So the old "Repair trick" huh? The guy we are talking to was definitely thinking along those lines then. That and we told him the budget was tight so it would be nice to salvage/re-use where possible.
Your project thread is awesome by the way. Checked it a couple times.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2019 17:47 - Edited by: Steve_S
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They do not seem to have any at this time but keep an eye on it. Other goodies lurking there too.
https://cohenandcohen.com/product-category/retail-outlet/
I found my insulation, all of it, the EPS, ISO the XPS all through Kijiji, had to run around (even rented trailers) and store it all till I started building. Ironically, last fall, I gave away for free 4 lifts of 4" ISO , 120 pieces or so...
In my old thread I discuss some of that.
2 Good References:
https://www.greenbuildingsolutions.org/blog/frost-protected/
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2010/11/11/frost-protected-shallow-foundations-2
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