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Small Cabin Forum / Off-Grid Living / Lithium Battery
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DaveBell
Member
# Posted: 4 Mar 2021 21:47
Reply 


100 AH Lithium Battery 26 pounds, Trojan 100 AH Gel Cell 68 pounds. I would like to use the Lithium battery. I'm concerned about the Lithium exploding and burning. Seems they can if damaged or overcharged. I did find Lithium battery charge controllers. Are any of you using Lithium Batteries? Would like to hear facts and experience. Thanks.

ICC
Member
# Posted: 4 Mar 2021 21:56
Reply 


There are different types of lithium chemistries.
Some burn fiercely when things go wrong.
Stick with LiFePO4, also known as LFP.
Use with a BMS.
Life is then very good.

paulz
Member
# Posted: 4 Mar 2021 22:10
Reply 


For comparison, my 140 AH LFPs are 42 pounds.

Ontario lakeside
Member
# Posted: 4 Mar 2021 23:23
Reply 


We have been using a lithium pack for several years with no issues. Smaller, lighter and longer lasting.

DaveBell
Member
# Posted: 5 Mar 2021 00:07
Reply 


Quoting: paulz
my 140 AH LFPs are 42 pounds


Paul, what brand and model please.

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 5 Mar 2021 00:28 - Edited by: gcrank1
Reply 


I wont consider any other Lithium battery than LFP and am real close to getting the Premium LFP 100ah, 27#, about the size of a grp 27 FLA from RhinoVoltz. Check out their websight.
Do you have an Amish community nearby. Our locals are using this brand with success and I can buy it at one of their stores; all it takes is money.
Oh, btw, if you want to drive much at all do get a 100ah/80ish ah net useable. At just a 5a/60w draw you will use that up in some 16ish hours. For my av. use that is about 2 days and most of that at night. If you use half that you double the hours.

paulz
Member
# Posted: 5 Mar 2021 00:36 - Edited by: paulz
Reply 


Valence U27-12XP

I got mine used for $350 each. There were a lot on the market a year or two ago, big fleet of commercial vehicles went belly up was the story iirc. Only a few hundred cycles. Built in BMS. Still some for sale online for around $450. New they are astronomical. I haven't followed the LFP market, may be something better or less expensive now.

DaveBell
Member
# Posted: 5 Mar 2021 06:54
Reply 


ICC, Gcrank1, PaulZ, thank you!

FishHog
Member
# Posted: 5 Mar 2021 08:18
Reply 


There are many out there now Dave safe LPO batteries. Battleborn is probably the best simplest drop in, well built battery, but they are pricy.

You do need to get a Lithium compatible charger, and program your solar charge controller for Li if you have solar, but otherwise maintenance free, light and very safe.

Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 5 Mar 2021 08:19
Reply 


Here is a Video worth watching, self-explanatory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzt9RZ0FQyM

LiFePO4 (LFP) is really the way to go for a safer, long-lasting battery system. You can DIY and build your own assembly or buy a premade battery pack. There are MANY bad prebuilts out there, as well as high quality premium ones as well. Due Diligence in research BEFORE plunking down any coin.

Attached is the Luyuan Tech Basic LiFePO4 guide for LFP Battery Pack assembly, this is also a Known Good Vendor used by many of us on the DIYSolarForum for anyone interested / curious about DIY'ing their own.

Hope it helps, Good Luck
Steve
Luyuan_Tech_Basic_Li.pdfAttached file: Luyuan Tech Basic LiFePO4 Guide 1.0a
 


groingo
Member
# Posted: 24 Mar 2021 14:58
Reply 


My Battleborn 100 ah Lifepo4 battery weighs 23 lbs, has an excellent programable BMS with temp censor is UL Listed, ten year warranty has good ventilation and was the smartest thing I have done in recent memory, get a reputable real brand not some generic rebrand for cheap, some common sense and watch Will Prowse DYI Solar on Youtube, you'll learn alot!

SCSJeff
Member
# Posted: 24 Mar 2021 15:23
Reply 


Grank1,

Looks like Rhinovoltz is based near Lancaster, PA. I'm only about an hour from there and can make it on my way to our cabin in Central PA. If their site is correct, $540 for 200AH is pretty darn good (I wonder if that is supposed to be for 100AH?)

Unfortunately, it looks like their site has been hijacked... Trying to click on the "Shop" redirects to some suspicious site that Google is blocking with a big red alert. I guess I'll give them a call

groingo
Member
# Posted: 24 Mar 2021 15:50 - Edited by: groingo
Reply 


540 would be cheap even for a 100 ah, be very careful, at that price they are most likely using grade B cells but I do like the dual connectors and BMS readouts while with only a 5 year warranty doubt they are using cylindrical cells or a quality BMS.

SCSJeff
Member
# Posted: 24 Mar 2021 16:01
Reply 


$540 is in the range that SOK and ReBel are selling at for 100AH. In my dealings with the Amish in PA, they have been trustworthy and provide good service/work for less $. I suspect a typo on their website. But, since they are somewhat local to me, I may stop by and see their products in person and ask some questions about cells, BMS, etc.

groingo
Member
# Posted: 24 Mar 2021 16:08 - Edited by: groingo
Reply 


A minute ago it showed $565.00.
Also found no reviews in text or video on Rhinovoltz other than their website which also had no reviews.
Check return policies, you pay return shipping only after they approve.
Also, their website is a mess, latest price shown 12 volt 100 Ah was $565.00.
Screenshot_20210325.jpg
Screenshot_20210325.jpg


SCSJeff
Member
# Posted: 24 Mar 2021 18:11 - Edited by: SCSJeff
Reply 


Hmm...

I'm still seeing $539 at the bottom of their homepage. See attached
screenShot
screenShot


gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 24 Mar 2021 20:49 - Edited by: gcrank1
Reply 


Imo, somebody goofed on loading pricing.
I have a not too old catalog and pricelist in hand:
'Premium' battery, 100ah, prismatic cell @ $605
'Solar', metal cased prismatic cells, 200ah @ $1,100
I would be Very Interested in your 'report and review' if you can find the time to go there and see what ya think!

groingo
Member
# Posted: 25 Mar 2021 12:23
Reply 


Ran their address on google maps, might pay to drop by, place looks real nice, looks to be a farm possibly dairy, hey, got no gripe with home business, ROAD TRIP!
Screenshot_20210325.jpg
Screenshot_20210325.jpg


SCSJeff
Member
# Posted: 27 Mar 2021 12:32 - Edited by: SCSJeff
Reply 


groingo,

How did you get to their "shop" page?

Here's what I'm still getting when trying to connect to https://rhinovoltz.com/shop/ (also using the Brave browser):
Screen_Shot_202103.png
Screen_Shot_202103.png
Screen_Shot_202103.png
Screen_Shot_202103.png


groingo
Member
# Posted: 27 Mar 2021 12:55 - Edited by: groingo
Reply 


Maybe try clearing your browser history and cache.
Took this just a second ago.
Screenshot_20210327.jpg
Screenshot_20210327.jpg


Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 27 Mar 2021 13:00
Reply 


TBH, I would not go there... The warning flags are flying. LIO N Batteries (Lifepo) are apparently on sale again at Costco. There are other recognized know "brands" out there. 12V/100AH are quite a bit more common today than even 6 months ago. But not at $539 USD

Couple of options: (also good to compare with known good reputables below)
https://canbat.com/product-category/lithium-iron-phosphate-battery-lifepo4/

https://www.volthium.com/batterie

https://relionbattery.com/products/lithium

https://lionenergy.com/collections/batteries

https://www.signaturesolar.us/categories/batteries/2203789000000543047
* There are good video reviews & teardowns on YT as well, these rate really well.

SCSJeff
Member
# Posted: 27 Mar 2021 21:27
Reply 


IDK... I'm getting the same thing on Firefox and Safari too

Steve,

Ordinarily, I'd agree with you. But, since they are within reasonable driving distance of me, my curiosity might get the best of me

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 27 Mar 2021 22:14
Reply 


Steve_S, are you saying at almost $600 for a 100am LFP is a warning sign and I need to be looking at $1000/100ah to get something good?

groingo
Member
# Posted: 27 Mar 2021 23:30
Reply 


Leave your money at home, there is quite literally nothing on these guys regarding track record etc., gather info don`t do an impulse buy, all the stuff comes from China in the end, at that pricepoint you mention the SOK makes a high quality battery IF you could get one in the same price range.
I paid 899.00 for my Battleborn based on a LOT of credible reviews and personal customer service with no regrets.

Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 28 Mar 2021 03:40
Reply 


I have bought cells retail & wholesale, Bulk Commodity to Grade-A Matched, Batched & Binned.

$600 for 4x100AH cells+BMS+Casing+Labour & Assembly, shipping etc = very cheap & likely NOT what you hope for. They may also be using cylindrical cells which would be different.

There have been teardowns of these cheaper off-brands and what's inside and the quality of the internal assemblies are dubious at best.

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 28 Mar 2021 14:38
Reply 


They do say in the lit they are prismatic; who knows until one is pulled down.
This wagon is getting a little too high to jump on......
I was getting set to ante up for the Rhino 100ah locally @ $589 + 5.5% tx so $621.40 for some 80-85 net ah's, that's $7.30ish/ah. If I really need to spend $1000ish that's $11.75ish/ah; that aint happenin.
Locally I can get 2x GC2 6v/220ish ah for a series 12v, 100 net ah @ $250, that's $2.50/ah. Even if I killed and replaced them every 3 years thats 10+ years for the same money spent, but over time not all at once.
Double that at under $500 for 200+ net ah's and Id have more power than I ever have had and more than the net available on the 100ah LFP.
The math aint working for me on LFP even though they have better net/cycling, faster recharge, less weight, and less maintenance.
Comparable net ah's, dont have massive draw anyway.
We arent living there, plenty of recharge time in-between.
Once in place the weight doesnt matter.
Im used to traditional bat maintenance, no big deal.

groingo
Member
# Posted: 28 Mar 2021 18:20 - Edited by: groingo
Reply 


I guess it gets down to how much power do you really need, good rule of thumb, whatever you think you need Double It!
I went from 2 235 Ah floodeds to a single 100 ah BB but I also upgraded everything less the panels which brought down my energy needs by over half and greatly increased efficiency specifically to work with the BB battery, the nice thing about the Lifepo4 battery (BB uses Cylindrical cells) is how fast it charges compared to floodeds, easily five times faster so you can get alot more juice into them on crummy days, my BB was $899.00 all in with a real 10 year warranty and tech people you can get real solutions from.
This battery is set and configured to last....example the BMS is set to shut down the battery at 70% discharge to improve battery life, is indoor in a temperature controlled environment with good ventilation, not just a battery but an investment.
Coming from floodeds myself the big problem they have is a very small useable power range typically 12.6 to 11 volts but BB batteries live at 13.4 to 13 volts conservatively leaving 20 percent reserve power or Flooded running something for 4 hours vs BB running same thing for 16 hours with one 100 ah vs 200 ah flooded. Confused....been there too!

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 28 Mar 2021 20:09 - Edited by: gcrank1
Reply 


Investment, no. They are an expendable and thus a liability (ie, they will most definitely not increase in value over time) and whatever the chemistry they will wear out and need replacement, and at what cost.
Your RoT is pretty much correct by my experience; figure what ya 'need' and double it (btw, exactly the same formula for digging a hole to bury stuff, lol) so Im good on that calc.
Even though LFP will draw down pretty much flat-line though its 80% net ah's off the shoulders (less at a bms setpoint of 70% sod) so will a LA through the 'top' 50% so mathematically a LFP 100ah/80net equals a 160ah LA for usable ah's (Id just call that 200 for easy figuring and LA gets 'tired' faster). And yeah, they will charge faster, no question about that, if you have enough array to pump out the charge. I'll give you that the LFP with its faster/higher discharge rate should start and run higher draw devices better.
I want to love LFP, think I could, but she's looking like a high style 'indulgence' more than a good practical wife.

SCSJeff
Member
# Posted: 28 Mar 2021 22:09 - Edited by: SCSJeff
Reply 


I didn't even think about tax... No, I wouldn't buy that rhinovoltz either. Maybe, if I ever get to their place in person and like what I see/hear, I would offer cash and see if they waive the tax. But, otherwise, I just assume get a SOK or ReBel (both of which have teardown reviews available on YouTube) and known good BMS's for no tax, free shipping, and accept PayPal PayLater...

paulz
Member
# Posted: 2 Apr 2021 09:15
Reply 


I sold my blown SCC and inverter to an electronics tech who says he gets 280ah prismatic 4 cells out of China for $450.

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