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Small Cabin Forum / Off-Grid Living / Ouch!!!!
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rachelsdad
Member
# Posted: 31 May 2021 06:32 - Edited by: rachelsdad
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2 weeks ago i swung by camp to open for season. Everthing seemed fine, left a few lights on.

Was in area driving through, noticed lights were not on.

No below freezing temps past 2 weeks.

All i can figure out is CC reverted to factory settings vs. settings for litium. I shut CC off but could not due any further investigation until im back there next week.

Any idea of what happened? Luckily nothing burned or blew up, notvsure of ststus of CC or inverter....ugh
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Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 31 May 2021 07:50
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A few things could have happened.
The Chargery BMS which you are using has several quirks... I KNOW THEM WELL wrote the current manuals for them plus.

If the Batts disconnected because of the BMS AND IF the SCC restarted without BATTS being seen it "may" have come back at a default 12V setup. Most SCC's will not startup if there is no Batt sensed.

The SOC Counter can lose track and shutdown the pack. I have 5 of them running and two are notorious for it although I have to update the firmware to 4.05 now that Jason released it.

Once you update the firmware (use a Windows PC) then you can adjust some settings such as
"Low SOC cutoff​ from 20%​ to 0%​ as it forces cutoff @ % (faulty)​.

BTW: I won't be editing the Chargery manuals again, a new version is coming with better communications, Active Balancing instead of the Passive and more goodies.

Chargery Firmware updates & updated manuals here: http://chargery.com/update.asp

rachelsdad
Member
# Posted: 31 May 2021 08:38
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Ill get back hopefully next weekend. So assume batteries are shot...did they over charge? Get wrong voltage?

Odd how they expanded like that and exposed the bags.

Any issues handling/disposing. Chevy Volt 24 volt packs. Worked fine last year but i had shut off CC and inverter plus unhooked yellow cables...tho i don't remember why...while leaving for winter.

Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 31 May 2021 09:43
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Without better "current" photos as to the state is the situation, we can postulate & theorize till the Free Range wild cattle come home...

The BMS should have CUT OFF at Low or High voltage states and/or out of Temperature Range.

We should DIAG the Batteries first before jumping to conclusions. We will need to know the Specifics on the battery packs you used, Volts used a couple of different ones (all similar but not 100% the same).
Cell Make/Model and any details = helpful.

A Lurkin Gotcha though.
GEN 1 VOLT. BATTERY PACK. Cell Chemistry. NMC-LMO Pouch. and their voltage range is "unusual" in a general term, so all the gear SCC, Inverter, BMS etc have to be programmed to the specifics. No default settings would really work for that chemistry, not with "off the shelf" products. This is where using LFP (LiFePo4) which is more closely coparble to the old FLA Voltage Ranges which are often teh default settings for most equipment (except BMS' of course).

IF the battery packs are pooched, there are many ways to get them to a Recycler as they are finally becoming a reality and accessible. The cells may be salvageable but we won't know till you have your hands on them.

Leaving an SCC on over winter is fine IF settings are right & hard set to programmable memory (meaning they will come up as default if/when SCC restarts). Inverter and "draw" devices off is also a good idea in general. NMC/LMO does not have the same issues with Below 32F/0C temp charging until it's severely cold. Sorry, I forget where you are.

Now the hard part, thinking of the nasty possibilities and having to wait till the weekend to know what the deal is... Stuff to make a calm person go insane.

Brettny
Member
# Posted: 31 May 2021 15:26
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Geez that does look like a pricey Ouch!

Maybe turning the system off would be better when you leave.

paulz
Member
# Posted: 31 May 2021 17:03
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Painful. On the bright side, as you said, the place is still standing.

gcrank1
Member
# Posted: 31 May 2021 18:20
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Just when I was thinking on going LFP again....

Nobadays
Member
# Posted: 31 May 2021 19:57
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These are not LFP. they are NMC. Great lithium storage modules but also much less like FLA than LFP. So as Steve points out.... and it's all conjecture at this point.... if the SCC defaulted to FLA parameters these modules wouldn't like that at all! Glad nothing more than module damage!!

Brettny
Member
# Posted: 31 May 2021 20:36
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Dosnt lithium do this when it's over charged?

I had a cell blow up like that in a cell phone once. It was plugged in for nearly a year..not much loss because I had a second battery and cought it.

WILL1E
Member
# Posted: 2 Jun 2021 15:53
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Steve_S Do you work or build LiPo packs? If so, how can i contact you directly? I've got a need at work for some custom packs that we were getting from BlueLine but we aren't getting any response from them.

Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 2 Jun 2021 22:15
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My thing is with LFP LiFePO4 mostly.

WILL1E
Member
# Posted: 3 Jun 2021 08:33
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Got it. I misspoke as well, i'm looking for a custom Li-ion pack, not LiPo. If you have any sources of someone that could do custom 12V 60'ish Ah packs, please let me know!

rachelsdad
Member
# Posted: 11 Jun 2021 13:25
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Batteries are caca!

Spoke w/Midnite Solar, great help. He was pretty sure the CC would not have defaulted and he did confirm CC will not allow me to check settings until it "senses" batteries..so hopefully it is ok. I found 4 replacement Volt cells that will be in Wednesday.

He confirmed the settings I had input into the CC for the Volts

My question to the group here:

I bought a BMS from a (seems like) former member here who had led the charge for conversion to the lithium batteries.

The BMS plugs into the top of the batteries and to a "reader". But it never plugs into the CC, nor does the CC seem to "notice" it. Is that the correct set up? No direct connect to the CC? Seems odd as you'd think they would need to talk to each other.

I'm leery of reusing the Chargery BMS. Any other suggestions for a BMS? I ask because if the the original BMS allowed this to happen I'm not going to trust it again.

Thoughts?

Nobadays
Member
# Posted: 11 Jun 2021 19:48
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Steve will know for sure.... but I have a "red wing" bms, I think it is NOT a Chargery from the same source, it offers no protection to the modules at all. All the bms does is balance the cells. I question that the Chargery could have damaged your modules, but I don't know how it works. The really appear to have either over charged and basically "blew up" or froze and expanded,

Have you sent an email to Bobolink to show/ask his thoughts?

I really want to know what happened! I am running 8 x 48v modules and I want to avoid that kind of destruction!

Keep us informed please!

Nobadays
Member
# Posted: 11 Jun 2021 19:49 - Edited by: Nobadays
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Double post... sorry

rachelsdad
Member
# Posted: 12 Jun 2021 03:43
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Creeky basically thought overcharge. Based on what you said about function its reassuring to know the BMS wouldn't be the culprit....tho Steve had raised the fact that the BMS should have sensed voltage or temp irregularities.

Batteries were never physically disconnected from CC, merely the BMS cabels....but again i don't remember doing that...perhaps an intruder.

Ill be back up on the 19th.

Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 12 Jun 2021 06:38
Reply 


I worked with Jason at Chargery with regards to the entire BMS line, even rewrote the manuals to a less chinglish more reasonably understood doc.... Myself and a few others also contributed into the development of the DCC Smart Solid State Contactor to outplace the Electro-Mechanical relays which are power hogs. Jason @ Chargery did great stuff with us and has now developed a new model which is about to be released with Active Balancing, better communications and much more, this is coming out as the "P" series.

We also had the firmware heavily updated and it also includes Cold Temp cutoffs which it previously did not. Because I do not know what firmware you have I cannot say what would have occured on the BMS side of things. Cold Temp Cutoff was not added to Chargery BMS until spring of 2020.

Current Version is:
BMS main unit V4.05 & BMS LCD module V4.03
These support LiPo/Li-ion, LiFe & LiTO
Everything required is here: http://chargery.com/update.asp

RedWing BMS:
I looked at Creeky's Site, downloaded his instruction video, I see NO BMS THERE !
Link: https://bobolinksolar.com/blog/2018/01/19/using-your-redwing-bms/
That is a stack of QNBBM-8S Active Balancers. Those are NOT BMS', they only transfer Voltage from Hi Cells to Low Cells. I happen to use those as well on ALL of my battery packs.
REF LINK to QNBBM: https://deligreen.en.alibaba.com/productgrouplist-806516208/QNBBM_Balancer.html

Here are Links to DOCS for assembling your own LFP (LiFePo4) battery packs and more, I have posted this info into other threads here but it's all hosted at my main "hangout" as DIYSolarForum.

Luyuan Tech LFP Assembly Guide PDF
LFP Voltage Chart (Hi Rez PDF download)

A BMS is a Standalone device in this context. It will not directly interact with an external component like an SCC or Inverter. It only deals with the cells & it's pack. More Advanced BMS' like Orion, Rec, TinyBMS can interact with equipment like Victron or SolArk but now you are talking Much More Money ! (almost obscene). The SCC is programmed to do it's thing and it's limits for cutoffs etc. The Inverter is the same. There are several ways to configure systems and with a BMS like a Chargery for example, the relay signals can be used to signal devices like an inverter to shutoff. THAT is a longer tech talk. BTW: I did cover it in the Chargery Manuals to a point.

@rachelsdad Please provide a Photo of this BMS you have.

Chargery BMS image attached:
BTW ECPC (Electric Car Parts Company) rebrands them as "Choice BMS".

For anyone interested, here is a link to my "About my System" pages, which have a lot of references, links to parts & components and Much More and may likely answer some pending questions. NB, the pages are slightly out of date, as I reconfigured my battery bank as 3X 24V/280AH + 1X 24V350AH for 1190AH/30.4kWh for the completion, so I have to update the photo's but the tech is the same.
About my System Page @ DIYSolar.

In Closing a Warning. IF these are NMC or other "Volatile" Lithium Chemistries BE CAUTIOUS ! If they overcharged and bloated in anyway they are SUSPECT !!! If they undercharged they likely survived BUT took some lifecycle loss. These could be revived with care & caution and very diligent testing & monitoring. If the cells went below the chemistries Low Volt Cut point and sat like that over time & adverse weather (freezing and such) then they will have lost capacity & capability so again evaluations will have to be done as the cell terminal level with care.

All batteries can be dangerous. NMC/NCA and such chemistries can be extremely dangerous and different things can happen pending on which end of the stick (Hi vs Lo volts) even at 0% SOC these things can be seriously dangerous ! One MAJOR reason I went with LFP because it is safe, you can fire a bullet through them and they won't blow up or catch fire. Freeze them, thaw them and use them... just no charging below freezing (unless doped with Yttrium +$$).

Little long but hope it helps.
Steve
Chargery BMS16T
Chargery BMS16T


Nobadays
Member
# Posted: 12 Jun 2021 08:23
Reply 


Thanks Steve.... I call it a BMS, now I understand it is just a cell balancer. Very effective at what it does!

Steve_S
Member
# Posted: 12 Jun 2021 09:10
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An excellent resource that explains man components, bits, the differences and more. All of it is Clean English everyone can understand, even the white papers. For anyone interested in learning, understand more of this tech, this is a good place to get real & accurate information.

http://liionbms.com/php/index.php

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