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Kharkov43
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 17:28 - Edited by: Kharkov43
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http://www.sott.net/article/256170-EPA-to-outlaw-many-wood-burning-stoves.
You don't think the good old USA is going to hell in a handbasket.  When is enough enough. Guns now wood stoves they can kiss my gun toting wood burning arssssssss!
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MJW
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 18:14
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hahaha...amen brother!
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 18:28
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wow our government is out of control.
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Martian
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 18:30
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And some people wonder why I try to get people involved in politics; SHEESH!
Those of us with little cabins, and therefore, little stoves probably don't need to worry about this. My stove is only a year and a half old and is too small to fall under the regulations; or at least that what the literature said when I bought it. And since old, used woodstoves don't have much value anyway, I'll not be losing any sleep over this.
Tom
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johng
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 18:39
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I just threw a few more logs on the fire.
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oldgringo
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 18:58
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I'm all about clean air, and we all need to do our part, but this seems absurd when juxtaposed on the pollution being put out daily by America's coal fired power plants.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 20:06
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But the owners of the coal plants can shovel millions of dollars into campaign funds. Can you?
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sparky1
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 20:06
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first .put the fire out in the white house---HE"S burning a fire.
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 20:52
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Don't worry, at the rate this country is going we'll all need to speak Chinese before they take our wood stoves!
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larry
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 22:17
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if i'm not mistaken, don't the majority of the members here have newer stoves any way? i do and the damn thing burns clean in comparison to older metal boxes.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 22:42
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Quoting: groingo Don't worry, at the rate this country is going we'll all need to speak Chinese before they take our wood stoves!
Worse yet, you can buy a chinese woodstove. Place is crawling with them. I have a Fjord trash burner in my cabin. Made probably in the 60's.
I did have an EPA certified Quadrafire put in my home, installed professionally back in summer of 02. It may not meet standards now. I will not have govt tell me I can heat my place with wood. Even if it means not asking for permission.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 22:44
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Quoting: larry if i'm not mistaken, don't the majority of the members here have newer stoves any way? i do and the damn thing burns clean in comparison to older metal boxes.
Looked at Northern Tools, they wont even sell woodstoves to my state. Or most of them anyway. Nuts.
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MJW
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2013 23:55 - Edited by: MJW
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This is just the beginning.
Laws prohibiting using lawn space as a garden, laws against using a wood stove, rain water catchment laws, gun control...
Stay with us...more to come...
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TomChum
Member
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 02:00 - Edited by: TomChum
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Kharkov43
The title of this thread is "Outlawing Wood Stoves!". The referenced website article says "EPA to outlaw many woodstoves" which is hardly news. Every municipality in the USA that has air quality problems has had stove regulations for 10 if not 20 years. I'm curious, was it intentional to mislead the members of this forum that some new crap is coming down? Or did SOTT really convince you that our horrible government is coming to take away our woodstoves? Or did SOTT simply get you riled enough to spread the word about their website without passing it by your reality filter?
Read the SOTT article again, and notice the link SOTT put, to www.epa.gov, where the EPA posts an entire site HOW TO BURN WOOD IN YOUR WOODSTOVE! Where they say the same stuff that all the seasoned woodstovers say here on Small-cabin. And it does NOT say they're coming to get your woodstove. And SOTT doesn't think you'll comprehend that, to the point they GIVE you the link!.
Quoting: MJW Laws prohibiting using lawn space as a garden
I remember that one. This person was gardening on city property, (in the median strip between their fence and the roadway) was ordered to remove it. They turned it into an "ALL Gardens are Illegal" rally. Got a lot of attention from all over and still getting it! That one was BS. Who knows what other shenanigans they were up to?
Lets not get too carried away. There is a LOT of BS out there. A lot of it is to make you mad. It's just political marketing; don't let it ruin your life and your country too.
First of all.... this SOTT website. Their tone, what they want you to think your out-of-control government is coming to take away all the wood stoves, door to door. Here we are swallowing it hook line and sinker, ready to march on Washington. I think it's more likely a way to get people to mention the SOTT website on forums, so they can sell MORE more crazy books and T-Shirts. They are USING you.
Anyway, here's a question......do you think CHINA SHOULD have a powerful EPA?
Here's a photo of air pollution in Beijing, yesterday. Who is really SO against taking care of this world such that it's OK for your grandchildren to live in? In China they don't care, is this what you want the good ole USA to be?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/15/china-air-pollution-government-transpar ency.html
Lets get real. That stuff you're reading, seeing, hearing, Fox news, talk radio, it's not true --- it's paid industry BS. They just want to milk the last dollars they can out of YOU. Not only the environmentalists but me and YOU too! Sorry I just can't take this BS tonight. Pay attention to where you get your news, a democracy cannot work when people don't care about BS in their news.
Who will be to blame if America looks like Beijing to your grandchildren? You. No wildlife? You. No forest? You. Polluted food supply? You. Everyone drugged, even our children? You. You who believed their paidfor BS and let big industry manipulate our news. Sorry I'm a grump tonite, (but I hope somebody will give me an 'amen, brother') 
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 04:34 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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Great post. I did some research after reading the headline and found it to be very misleading.
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ShabinNo5
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 05:12
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TomChum,
Enjoying your post and agree. Whenever I read an artical based on emotional rants, without supporting facts, I usally just shake my head.
To your point I need to challenge these assumptions. Recently I was just shaking my head and Michele Backmann was re-elected 
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rayyy
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 05:40
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Ohhh our government.It's so sad to see them getting so far off track.Alright,so what's our options?Burn,oil,gas or coal instead of wood?I know,got an idea,,,let's convert our wood stoves into nuclear reactors and heat water to heat our homes?(just don't make coffee with it!)
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MJW
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 06:52 - Edited by: MJW
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Quoting: TomChum I remember that one.
Not talking about that one in particular, Tom.
There have been several stories about this with homeowners not being able to use their lawns in this manner.
Sorry if you can't see the steady erosion of our freedoms but I can see them clearly.
I like to think I am smart enough not to buy into the whole "sky is falling - better grab our guns and head for the hills" political madness but the growing government taking more and more of our rights is a very real problem.
I am not a fanatic but I do know some of them.
Yes, you are very much a grump tonight. I hope you day gets better.
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Martian
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 08:10
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TomChum. the voice of reason. Here's your "AMEN!"
Thank you for taking the time to write sucha well thought out post.
Tom
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AYP1909
Member
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 10:54
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Quoting: Martian TomChum. the voice of reason. Here's your "AMEN!" Thank you for taking the time to write sucha well thought out post.
Ditto.
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Montanagirl
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 10:56
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Quoting: MJW Sorry if you can't see the steady erosion of our freedoms but I can see them clearly.
Amen brother!
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groingo
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 11:26 - Edited by: groingo
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Here is the text of the proposal, looks like the previous one where they were going to offer incentives for people to trade in their old stoves for a newer clean burning stove, I found nothing that indicates an outright OUTLAW of wood stoves and you have to admit, the new ones are much cleaner and more efficient.
Link to EPA proposal:
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h2454/text?version=rh&nid=t0:rh:2885
Note: With Obama's reputation for backpedaling and outright Lying, you can be sure big oil and gas will be working hard to get rid of any competition, especially when it is so obvious who's pockets the Government is in!
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TomChum
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 11:47 - Edited by: TomChum
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Quoting: MJW There have been several stories about this with homeowners not being able to use their lawns in this manner.
Yes that one was a municipal disagreement that was discussed on Small-Cabin. Maybe you then referring to people contesting Homeowner Agreements (that they signed)? A contract is a contract, the time to contest it is before you sign it. These people made their bed and they don't want to lay in it, I have no sympathy at all for them, they did not comprehend the power of their contract. That is a contract issue, not a freedom issue.
Quoting: Montanagirl Quoting: MJW Sorry if you can't see the steady erosion of our freedoms but I can see them clearly. Amen brother!
I'm all for watching out for our freedoms but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Big industry and big money doesn't like a government that restricts their use of our country. They want it OUT. Don't just go along with them, they are in it to get the money from YOU.
Seatbelts, smoking in restaurants, pollution, deforestation, even women being allowed to vote, are examples of erosions of someone's freedom that were fought in the beginning (often by industry marketing their side) and won by people making their world better.
I can't shoot a gun at my house in the city, but nobody would blink an eye if I shot a gun while at my cabin, not even the sheriff. Does this show that my freedom has been eroded? Or is this just what society needs to do to protect itself? Let's stay "real" or there's no way to solve problems.
I do NOT agree with everything that is being done, but these are not all erosions. I don't like gov't telling me I can't ride my dirtbike in a tree plantation (that by charter, will have bulldozers driving over every inch of it someday). I do it anyway, but fully understand that if everyone from the city was out there using the forest however they wanted, it would be a real problem. There are shades of grey in everything.
I doubt my cabin woodstove (mfd 1982) is EPA certified, I couldn't care less and and I'm gonna use it. In the city however I use a certified stove. How would you like it if your mom lived next door and couldn't breathe when I ran my stove? That's a REAL situation for many city people.
Thanks groingo, here's the direct link into the "Certified Stoves Program" section 218 of the "American Clean Energy And Security Act of 2009". It's not a proposal, it's an act of congress that's going on 4 years old. Read sec 218, it's not very long, and it is understandable. It has a lot to do with the world we pass onto our children. I suppose this was started several years before, finally passed congressional approval in 2009. It was started LONG before Obama, and was refined over the years by our congress, and ratified by our congress.
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Montanagirl
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 13:24
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Quoting: TomChum Lets get real. That stuff you're reading, seeing, hearing, Fox news, talk radio, it's not true
I would argue you can't believe ABC/CBS/NBC/PBS/NPR/CNN either
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 13:35
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I am a big Formula 1 race fan. One thing I have noticed over many year is the air quality, or lack thereof, in many places around the world. Races in China, Singapore and S Korea stand out in my memory for the lack of clean air, the low visibility down the straights and across the courses. Our worst polluted air is Bakersfield CA IIRC. Bakersfields worst day is a "walk in the park" by comparison. Why do y'all think that is? It is not an accident we in the USA have cleaner air today than we did decades ago.
I have lived in the same place for 28 years. Two decades ago in winter it was common to see the valley the Rio Grande flows through obscure by a brown cloud. Today that hardly ever happens. Yes, that took some government intervention. It is doubtful the cleaner air would have come about if the rule making was left in the hands of the corporations. Anyone want to argue that?
There are still "No Burn" days when those older pre-EPA wood stoves and fireplaces can not be used. But the rest of us with EPA listed devices can use them and the air is clean enough to see through and to breath without any issues.
I have read, on a reputable website, that wood stove ait pollution is much worse than that from a coal plant when comparable amounts of fuel are used. It was not a factor of twice or even three times; it was in the magnitudes of hundreds of times worse, for comparable amounts of fuel. So as individuals we already have a break.
We burn wood and one thing I love about the newer stoves is I have to cut less wood, split less wood, use less gasoline and oil to cut the trees, and have less waste product. Add to that most of the time I never see smoke from the chimney.
As for the diversion about not being able to grow a food crop in the front yard... that just needs some grassroots political involvement. Rules like that are pretty much always local zoning laws put in place by local folks who wanted the front street and yards to look pretty. That kind of thing can be changed, but takes political involvement as was mentioned in another topic recently. Things like that can be changed.
Where I live, in the desert, front yards used to be required to have some grass. That rule was made by people who moved here from the NE of the country. They missed the greenery, so passed a damned fool ordinance that mandated grass landscaping. We were part of the organized opposition to that and now we can use rock, stone, native desert plants and so on for yard landscaping.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 13:52 - Edited by: TomChum
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The only way to follow the truth, is to watch different kinds of news agencies, and note their styles. Montanagirl, you did not list any outside news agencies, that is dangerous. Those who don't listen to any outside news couldn't possibly know whats really going on. Often they don't want you to listen to outside news for a reason.
If any news agency are constantly inputting little catchphrases into news story, be very careful of that agency, and learn them. Follow the money, WHO could benefit from these catchphrases? Maybe someone PAID for them to be inserted to the news. Who, of ABC/CBS/NBC/PBS/NPR/CNN (or FOX) gives you a news story but always slips in "our government is out of control" to almost every story? Do you then hear people repeating this phrase? Is it because it's true, or is it just an indoctrination, or marketing?
PS: Reminder. Our government (the USA anyway) is still what Congress enacts, not just what the President wants. The President has to convince the congress. What is happening in the USA is the result of the Congress, which is an organization of hundreds of powerful elected people. Other than some (perhaps too many) of our congress doing the work of industry (by getting YOUR dollars for THEM) it's a good structure.
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Montanagirl
Member
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 13:56
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Tom, it sounds like we agree on one thing . . . elections have consequences . . . 
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Dillio187
Member
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 14:09
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While I agree with Tom, is it really worth out tax dollars to force stove builders to dump their current models and make all new more 'efficient' ones to take the particulate from 15 micrograms to 12 micrograms? Come on, get real EPA.
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Kharkov43
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 14:19
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If I may, guns and wood stoves are secondary to why I posted this. I'm a life member of the NRA and beleive the 2nd Amendment is a right not a privilege and me owning a wood stove is my business not the Governments. My post was about my freedoms not someone telling me how,when and where. We have become a nation of laws and rules. What has happen to individualism in this country no one owes you nothing you are what you make of the situation. To quote the Bible, if you don't work you don't eat. Sorry for the rant
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2013 14:30
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I think the intent is to make the manufacturers alter their existing models to burn with less particulate.
My Morso 1410 was built about 10 years ago, never used, I still have the tag that came with it that shows it meets EPA stuff, and that it will produce about 4-5 grams of particulate per hour. Anyone know how to translate that into micrograms per cubic meter?
In the valleys in the California Sierra mountains, there is a regular problem with air quality due to woodstoves. Something has to be done, but exactly what, is the rub
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