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Rossman
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# Posted: 20 Jun 2013 12:03
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Hi all,
I am going to be installing a gas range/oven at our off-grid small home when we build next spring. Because we will be off grid I want to put the range on a switched electrical outlet so that the glow bar isn't on 24x7 draining power when we aren't even using the stove.
Does anyone have experience doing this and do you think there would be any issue? I presume this would work ok because the oven must work after a power outage has happened, and a switched outlet would be just like that really.
Thanks for any insights!
Thanks,
mark
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 20 Jun 2013 14:32
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I see no reason that it would not work, but then I don't know how the 'glowbars' on such stoves work. Are you sure they stay on all the time, even when you have the controls shut off?
But anyway there is certainly no issue with switching a receptacle, from the basic electrical perspective, if that's what you mean. The only question is whether switching the oven on/off creates any kind of interference with its operation, which I can't speak to at all.
Can you get ahold of the installation manual for the stove? The manufacturer should tell you what's what.
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Rossman
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# Posted: 20 Jun 2013 22:22
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Yeah, I emailed them (GE), they said:
"Per our range product team, we have not tested our products for this type of installation. Therefore we cannot recommend installing the range in the manner you discussed."
Thanks for the response!
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 20 Jun 2013 23:24
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Check out Unique. They make propane appliances for off grid use. That's what I'm getting next summer.
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Rossman
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2013 09:24
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Yeah, I've checked these out, the problem is they look like crap and ain't gonna fly with my missus 
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2013 13:30
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I don't like the appearance of the stoves either. But I would like to have something that works versus a stove that looks pretty and won't work off grid.
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Rossman
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2013 13:52
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Aye, and that's what my question is, will this range work in the manner we would like to set it up in. I feel we can probably still operate the regular appliance off-grid if we use a switched receptacle to prevent 24x7 power draw.
We are going to have a pretty serious off-grid solar pv setup, for sure. I would rather pay double to have more power/battery capacity, and be able to run regular energy star appliances, than be stuck with the poor selection off "off-grid" appliances.
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ICC
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2013 15:52
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check peerless premier. they used to have some ranges that did not have glowbar ovens but did use sperk ignition for the surface burners. I have one that is about 8 years old.
glowbars do not operate 24/7, only when gas is turned on for the oven. but they do draw 400 to 500 watts. thats lots more than i care to see used.
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Rossman
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2013 17:26
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The high end "pro" range from peerless is pretty nice by my reckoning. I feel it will still be a tough sell to the missus.
Thanks for the feedback regarding power. That is a pretty substantial draw but I could fire up a generator for those times I guess. It's weird that a gas range uses so much power...i would have thought it would be relatively small...learn something new every day i guess.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2013 19:37
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And I sir was offering you other alternatives. Since the manifactor of your stove does not recommend that you use the stove in the manner you intend.
The appliances I have chosen are not a poor selection. They are made for off grid homes. Yours however are not. Good luck.
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ICC
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2013 21:37 - Edited by: ICC
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Part of the reason mfg have mostly settled on burner bars is they are dependable. There is no standing pilot. There is no danger that the burner flame can go out and leave the gas filling the oven space to then cause an explosion. They are a cheap way to make a safe gas oven. There are ways to make safe gas ovens that cost extra. Unique and Peerless cost more. But they work admirably off grid.
Off grid has some compromises that must be made. Adaptations to expectations and what one is used to must be made for successful off grid life and relationships. You could build an off grid electrical system that can handle the usual residential gas range power needs. There is a cost. With that in mind it may be easier for your missus to come to grips with the more limited choice in ranges.
I'd hate to have to run a generator each time the oven was wanted, unless it was once a year for a Thanksgiving turkey. And I'd still hate the noise. But the I don't tolerate generators as much as some others do.
Of course you can also seek out a range that uses pilot lights, though that is also limiting the selection. . The oven pilot does not have to be lit when the oven is not used. The pilot type oven burner has a thermocouple device like a water heater. The gas will not flow when there is no pilot flame. When the oven use is over you can turn of the gas supply until the pilot goes out and the t-couple cools. Then turn gas back on and light stove top pilots. I used to have one of those and that worked well enough. I had a handy gas shut off just behind the top edge of the stove to make gas on-off easy.
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Borrego
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2013 21:47
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I'm getting a stove next fall and I have done this same research. The decision was easy for me. Get the one that is made for your situation, don't try to jury-rig something that is not meant to work like that. Plus the wattage draw? No thanks... They do make some Stainless stoves that look pretty nice - appearance be hanged, tell your wife you need to do what's right.
What she said> Quoting: silverwaterlady I don't like the appearance of the stoves either. But I would like to have something that works versus a stove that looks pretty and won't work off grid.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2013 22:54
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If you are in Canada as I am and I believe Rossman is a standing pilot light on a stove can invalidate a homeowners policy if you choose to insure your cabin.
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Rossman
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2013 23:53
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Quoting: silverwaterlady The appliances I have chosen are not a poor selection.
I'm not suggesting they are, and I'm sorry if I implied that. I'm just saying my wife has her expectations which are clearly not as realistic as yours, and it's a tough sell if the appliance is unappealing physically, as well as it might work. Personally it doesn't matter to me, I would take what works, but, it's not solely my decision.
The reality for us is that we are not going off-grid by choice, it's by simple financial necessity - there is no grid connection near our property and to even get a design done by the hydro company to bring it in will cost $7k - then, however many thousands it will cost to actually run the service per that design. It seems a no brainer to instead pour that into a substantial off-grid solar setup. We still want to have modern comforts while we live off-grid, that's our choice *shrugs* Even if I spent 20k on a solar setup, I would be able to power nearly everything an on-grid home can, still have paid less than the grid connection, and never have to pay a power bill again. To me that's a win.
I appreciate the suggestion to use specially designed off grid ranges but I've already read (I think) every thread on them in this and other forums on them and had come to the same conclusion (tough sell to the missus).
Quoting: Borrego don't try to jury-rig something
I'm not really trying to jury-rig anything. I want to have every outlet in the house be switched to conserve power, and was just trying to ensure doing such for the range wouldn't be an issue.
In New Zealand when I lived there they had switches at every outlet, like this: http://www.icwhen.com/ncc14/topics/culture/images/image-0027.jpg
It was pretty darn awesome! Never been able to figure out why we don't have that here.
I guess I'll keep researching and see if I can find something that's a happy medium!
Thanks again for the replies they are appreciated!
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 22 Jun 2013 00:57 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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This is what I really wanted and it would have been amazing in my cabin. However not up to code.
We didn't choose to be off grid either. The nearest power lines are about 1 1/2 miles from our cabin. It would cost about $100,000!!! to run electric to the cabin.
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ICC
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# Posted: 22 Jun 2013 01:24
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IMO, switched outlets are great in an off grid situation. I have used a lot of them. I like switches with a pilot light that goes on when the switch is on and off when the switch is off. They can be hard to find as most pilot lit switches seem to be of the variety where the pilot is on when the switch is off; to find the switch in the dark i suppose. They make it easy to switch off things like the TV, stereo, microwave and so on so there is no phantom draw. I don't like the clutter you get with using switched power strips. Switches like those pictures would be nicer than having to make your own with half switched receptacles and then the switch too. Many of mine are done in s dual box, the switch and pilot in one place and a half switched outlet in the second place. Others have the switch remote from the switched receptacle, like for the TV and the nicrowave.
Sort of related to switches and regulating power.--- the upper scale inverters (Outback for example) have sensing circuitry. The inverter sits in standby or search mode. I have fine tuned mine to where a load as small as an LED night light or the TV on standby will wake the inverter. Saves power when the system is sitting during the day with no loads. Turning on a light or whatever almost instantly activates the inverter. Just thought I'd mention that in case your explorations on alt-energy had not revealed that to you.
Maybe I would fail the diplomacy test but I'd present the range choice as one of 9a0 the range of your choice my dear... just add $50K to the price tag so you can have your dream range, or 9b0 learn to compromise and save the thousands a grid connect or a mammoth PV system would cost.
Quoting: Rossman Even if I spent 20k on a solar setup, I would be able to power nearly everything an on-grid home can, ---
Key phrase there is "nearly everything"
Almost anything that can be done with a grid connection can be done when off grid. Devices and appliances that use resistance heating of any kind are limited. Limited to short times of use or very low loads. I use an electric toaster; how log does toast take, it is a short duration load. I also use a slow cooker, small load relatively for a long time, but when the sun is shining mostly. Again no big deal. We also use an electric blanket in winter to take the chill off the bed before climbing in for the night. Just 15 minutes does it. But a couple of hours of oven use (with a glowbar) can consume nearly a kilowatt hour of electricity. Not to mention if in the summer that is also heating up the interior to where A/C might be desired. We are so lucky to have CFL and now a greater selection of LED lights that are becoming more affordable.
A/C can be done but only with a split mini IMO.
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Rossman
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2013 19:01
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Thanks for the info.
The oven is a particular sticking point with the missus because she is big into cooking/baking.
Quoting: ICC Not to mention if in the summer that is also heating up the interior to where A/C might be desired.
We'll have this problem regardless of the type of oven :-/
Prob going to pass on A/C as we have a another spot on Lake Ontario in Quebec we can retreat to, it's usually cooler there and it does have grid power for things like an A/C.
Thanks again, appreciate all the info!
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Borrego
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2013 21:57
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Something like this wouldn't work?
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/appliance-folder/Premier30InchAll.html
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2013 01:35 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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.....
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Rossman
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2013 11:30 - Edited by: Rossman
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I just got off the phone with Peerless Premier, in fact, they do not sell / are not approved to sell the ovens without glowbars in Canada. They said they had applied for approval over a year ago and had still not heard back from whichever Canadian governmental agency is responsible for such.
They said they have some "standing gas pilot" models that they do sell in Canada. I guess we might not have many choices here.
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beachman
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2013 19:52
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Peerless Premier is what I was able to get just before they stopped shipping due to operation without electricity. It works great but you have to light it every time. I would highly recommend this type of unit if you can find one.
Silverwaterlady, that stove in your picture looks like a combo wood-propane unit. I have one in or old camp and it also works great. When you are off-grid it doesn't matter about code. You can't get insurance anyway.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2013 20:40 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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Hmmm-I have insurance on our off grid cabin since it was built in 2006 and that is without an address and it is log. I pay a high premium but I also have a cabin that would be very expensive to replace.
The stove is a Chambers stove. It is gas. The cool thing about it are the fire bricks inside. That makes it very heavy about 400 lbs. It also makes it super insulated. Everything cooks with half the amount of fuel because one can turn the oven off mid way through baking,the fire bricks retain the heat.
The Peerless stoves have electronic ignition. So yes you have to light it with a match if you are off grid. However the stove I recommended above has a battery so you don't need a match and because they are SOLD IN CANADA THEY ARE UP TO CODE!
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ICC
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2013 21:47
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Quoting: beachman When you are off-grid it doesn't matter about code. You can't get insurance anyway.
That probably varies company to company. I had no trouble getting insurance for the building and contents as well as liability. I did have to have an inspection and the inspector checked the wood stove and chimney as well as the gas piping and hookups, electrical installation and the outbuildings, etc.. I did have to remove a few trees that were too deemed too close (fire hazard). The exterior fire suppression system I installed helped some to reduce the premium too as did the metal roof, cement fiber siding and trim.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2013 22:36
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ICC is your cabin in Canada?
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ICC
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# Posted: 24 Jun 2013 22:56
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No.
About 800 miles due south of the 49th, western USA. I've visited all the provinces from BC east to QC though.
I tend for forget where others may be and that there are a number of Canadians here.. There are a few major differences but a lot of similarities especially when you get down to the level of the individual person. I've lived within a radius of 35 miles of where I am now since I decided to leave the army in '68. Got as far away from a jungle as I thought I could.
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