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Bemidjiboy
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2013 12:15
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Hey gang. VERY excited to have discovered this forum. I hope you are all enjoying your cabins this summer. Unseasonably cold in Northern MN and Ontario, but we're sucking it up. I have a 10 year old cabin that is wired and ready for a PV system and I'm ready to set up a water system. I have tons of questions, but I'll stick with the pumping and storage for now. I have about 23' of 2" sand point pipe smacked down, hopefully hitting a spring that runs into the lake. It draws water. I have done a test run with a shallow well jet pump and filled a 40 gallon tank recently. There is a hill right next to the house. How would you recommend a) pumping it, b) storing it, c) filtering it and d) heating it? We use the cabin for 1 or 2 week periods in the summer. Note that, just having water running out of a sink is a 5-star luxury for us. Here are some photos that show the back wall where the sinks are and the nearby sand point. One photo shows the green tank on my porch. Ignore any tubing on the wall which has been taken down. Thanks for your advice!
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sparky1
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# Posted: 17 Aug 2013 19:56
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will you be there all the time?
what about a hand pump--(they are cheap) you need some way to be sure any Pumping system.storage,filter system can be drained-"blown out" if you don't have all of it where it can be kept warm..Kinda like a camper(low water drains) etc;
small woodstoves can be modified to heat water (after a pump) so not to ruin the pump.
12 volt pumps"rv's campers" will work fine(my 2 cents) i live in southern Va.and lived in a 17ft camper 3 years-worked during the week stayed there weekends (only time place was heated) so a lot of work before leaving and refill when i got home.
I wish you the very best-
sparky1.in s.va.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 18 Aug 2013 09:02
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Looks like a great place!
I'm not really familiar with the sand point well requirements other than a standard RV pump would not have the head to pull directly from the well (I suspect). You mention that you are PV ready - does that mean you have no power now, plan to go all 12 volts or have 120 now and will augment with the PV system?
Anyway, I'll give you an idea of what I have and you can take whatever parts fit your needs (if any). I'm only running 12VDC and currently I just lug my water from the lake into a storage container. You might do the same type of thing by filling a storage container from the well when needed (generator to run a well pump perhaps). I will chlorinate the water (some recent threads on options to sanitize water) Note that we do not drink this water as it is for wahing and showering only. If you want to drink it as well then there may be some other things you need to consider (although coming from a sand point well is far different than coming from the lake). For my main distribution I use a RV pump (as Sparky mentioned) that is set up for on-demand. These faucets have micro switches that power the pump when turned on. The water line is split into two with one running into an eccotemp L5 on-demand heater and the other providing cold water. So, basically, turn on the cold tap and the pump kicks in and provides cold water. Turn on the hot tap and the water will go through the heater and provide hot water. Use both to adjust temperature. The shower head also has a on/off physical control so when you turn on the taps there you can get the water temperature right then close the the shower head - the pressure switch in the pump will turn the pump off until the valve is open again. Works great although it is not designed to run multiple sinks at the same time or reproduce what we have at home! You could insert a pressure tank behind the pump as well but I have not found the need.
Couple of notes on the diagram - I use a relay to provide power to the pump as I have (or will have) two sinks and a shower so it is much easier to run the main power line to the relay and pump and thin wires from the three faucets. In hindsight I could simplify this by using a pressure tank (arrive at the cabin, turn on the power to the pump and that is that). Most of my water lines are pex and I have used standard garden hose type fittings to make it easy to disconnect and drain (vital to do this especially for the heater - don't let it freeze. The price for the heater varies all over the place. Amazon.ca has it for $127 and some places are selling it for twice that! You can look for a good package deal that includes a suitable pump and filter. Eccotemp also has a L10 for more capacity but this needs more water. They have recently come out with a L7 model. My system is a bit more complicated than the diagram shows as I have added a branch before the pump to provide water to one of the sinks through a manual foot pump (so also has a one-way valve or two in it). Surprisingly I have found that many of the components are cheaper to buy from Marine supply shops than RV shops. A main source I use (good prices but also has the physical store in my city) is The Chandlery On-line .
Anyway - hope some of this might help give you some options
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Bemidjiboy
Member
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# Posted: 19 Aug 2013 23:01 - Edited by: Bemidjiboy
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Hi guys, thanks to both of you for the helpful comments. Razmichael, the cabin is not too far from Thunder Bay and I had a nice long visit with Maier Hardware the other day. the guy there wanted me to put in two systems: a 12-volt, dedicated small panel and battery for a pump to the water lines. Then, a separate AC system, etc, for lights and so on. The more I think about it, the less enthusiastic I am of building a water tower and pumping it into that. Maybe sand point-pump-pressure tank-lines (L7 heater)-sinks and shower. Drawing from 20' down on the 1.25" sand point is easy enough with my 1/2HP (I think) shallow well jet pump, but maybe it will work with a little 12 volt pump as well. I'm definitely going with the PEX lines. Maybe time to visit with a well-driller for further advice on specs. Nice diagram, by the way!
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razmichael
Member
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# Posted: 20 Aug 2013 08:16
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Quoting: Bemidjiboy but maybe it will work with a little 12 volt pump as well
There are 12V jet well pumps available I suspect, but I do not think the standard 12v RV type pump will do this. Most of them are designed to be self priming for only 5-10 feet at the most. Keep in mind that your 1/2HP 120V motor is drawing a fair amount of amps and the "jet" part of jet pump is designed for this particular function. Doing something similar with 12V will draw a fair amount of amps.
Why consider a water tower? Without knowing how much and type of power you plan to have hard to offer options. The fact that you are only up there for a couple of weeks means no need to get too complicated - depends on what degree of comfort you want. I was thinking of just using a water storage container on the ground. When you arrive, use your generator to run the jet pump to fill up the tank (clean it with a bit of chlorine). This becomes your reservoir that you use to provide your system the water needed using the RV pump. If you start to run out then start up the generator and refill.
I would suggest you consider just how you want to power the cabin as this will impact a lot of what you do. You mentioned it is ready for PV but what does this mean? Do you not have any power currently? You will need to do a power budget and determine the battery bank size, PV panel size, whether you want to go 12VDC, 120AC or a mixture etc.
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jace
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2013 09:37
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Raz.
Not to hi-jack the thread, what make and model filter, and pump are you using ? I have a similar system with a flojet 3526 pump. I tried installing an inline RV filter before the pump but my pressure coming out of the pump was too low to supply my system.
Thanks
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skootamattaschmidty
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2013 09:47
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We have the same type of system as Raz. I have a hundred gallon tank in a crawl space inside the cottage. I turn on my generator which runs a submersible pump that fills my tank from my source. When full I turn the generator off and the system is powered by a 12v Shurflo on demand pump. I also have an Eccotemp heater and have hot and cold. The 12v pump provides 45psi which is plenty of pressure. This services a kitchen sink, toilet with sink, shower and vanity at the back. Been working great for years now.
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razmichael
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2013 13:32
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Jace, not sure what model of FloJet - a 2.9 GPM model. Is your filter a Flojet? perhaps it is too small for the pump? The filter should cause very little impact on the flow unless it is too small or plugged.
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jace
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2013 17:07
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raz, I was experimenting with the style filter below, it was brand new so it wasn't clogged it just reduced my output pressure alot. what type of filter are you using ?
http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/tastepure-kdfcarbon-water-filter/18478
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razmichael
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2013 17:59
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Jace,
My mistake as I did not read your post properly - you are using a filter - I assumed it was a strainer designed to stop stuff from getting in the pump - example at Inlet strainer. You mentioned that you have this before the pump - try it after the pump as the design of the filter is to connect it to an external pressured tap, not before a pump. This may work better as it is designed to have water pushed through not pulled - this can make a big difference.
Another question - what are you trying to do with the filter? This is only a 100 micron filter so really only good to reduce odor and bad taste. Check out CDC Water Filtering to get an idea of what is needed for bacteria, spores and viruses (if this is your concern).
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jace
Member
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# Posted: 29 Aug 2013 08:13
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raz,
Just trying to filter debris, odor, etc. for showering and dish washing. I chose this type because I have my pump and controlls in a cooler with quick disconnects to keep it dry and also so when i leave our place i can just disconnect it and store it in the shed. a typical whole house sediment filter wouldn't mount in my cooler. Plus it was fairly inexpensive. I've since removed it and installed a flo-jet inline strainer to help with debris. going back to drawing board with the filter. thinking maybe something to filter the rain water before the storage tank.
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razmichael
Member
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# Posted: 29 Aug 2013 08:50
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Did you try the filter after the pump (assuming you had it before as stated in the initial post)? This may well allow you to use it although I'm not sure what the aim of it would be unless you have odor or taste issues. Not sure on your overall setup but if you are using rainwater (or lake water etc) you should be doing some pre-filtering of debris, flush away the initial rain water to clean off the roof etc (sorry if this is all old news - lots of previous threads on this and I don't use rain water - yet). Personally I like to disinfect as early as possible in the system (the storage container) to kill any initial stuff and prevent any buildup of bacteria and algae (I'm taking from the lake so a greater risk but rain water does have some risk of initial contamination or a buildup over time in storage). The filter you have will not offer much, if any, protection from bacteria, spores or virus contaminates.
Let us know what you come up with as your system sounds very neat and convenient (mounted in a cooler for easy transport).
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Bemidjiboy
Member
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# Posted: 29 Aug 2013 09:53
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OK, you two, back to the original thread.  Here's what my buddy, the electrician said about my wiring, etc: Basically your set up is for 12vdc what we did is ran much heavier wire than is needed for 120vac and we only installed a few outlets and lights ect..
"If you are going to set up a system for the long term , I would strongly suggest that you rewire the place for 120vAC , this would mean removing some or all of the existing wiring and rewiring for 120vAC , while this may sound daunting , its not too hard and it is definitely the way to go. It's what we should have done all those years ago.
Having the panelling on the walls that can be removed and reinstalled should help.
Once you have done this , and installed more receptacles , and any other lights ect. you can look at purchasing a good battery and inverter system will give you regular 120vAC power , which will be much more versatile and convenient , its what I would do if I were setting up you place for the long term.
I don't remember the exact layout , and wire size we used but while some of the wiring we installed is heavier than needed( ie #12 , #10 and maybe even some #8) for 120vAC , it could be re-used . For example the runs going from where your panel is to other parts of the house , but I would remove the wiring going to the receptacles , lights etc.. as it is heavier than required , and should be removed or at least disconnected at this time. You would then re-wire with regular #14 house wire
With your place being laid out the way it is , it is difficult if not impossible to run wire through the walls to various parts of the cabin , so I would make runs of armoured cabel called "bx" through the floor from underneath to various parts of cabin.
As I said some of the wiring we installed would work fine for these runs , you simply put a junction box at the end of the run of "bx" and wire any receptacles , lights ect. from there with #14 wire.
You can wire the place for 120vac , add some receptacles , light ect. without alot of effort or expense , by far the most money will be spent on your inverter , batteries and perhaps a few more solar panels . If I were doing this on any cabin today , I would immediately wire for 120vAc , install a 48v battery bank and a good inverter / transfer system . It will give you the convenience of regular house voltage and be much more versatile going into the future.
The one thing you might want to consider is if you want to wire the place "to code" in case power ever becomes available out there , this would be more expensive and difficult however , and quite frankly with todays tech you can supply pretty much anything you want and still be completely "off grid"
Any additional thoughts, Raz?
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razmichael
Member
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# Posted: 29 Aug 2013 10:10
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First - sorry for getting off-thread! I will note that we have gone from getting water to the taps to how to wire the cabin! . As for 120 vs 12V you will get loads of opinions on the best option. I went primarily 12V with a 120V circuit powered from a 'normally off' inverter. However I did the majority of the 12v wiring such that the majority of it could be converted in the future. To support this approach, I will shortly be getting the ceiling spray foamed but will do standard batt insulation in the walls so future wiring changes will not be a difficult (not to mention the cost savings). I love my 12v system and it was great fun designing and building it. Looking back with what I know now I suspect I would have had more factors to consider in the decision but I refuse to go there! Our cabin is small and simple and I do like the fact that 12v does sort of keep it that way. No TV, appliances etc which keeps the power demands down. If we planned to spend much more time there and wanted it to be more like our house then this would really have influenced our decision (and at some point it is cheaper and easier to go on grid).
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Bemidjiboy
Member
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# Posted: 31 Aug 2013 09:46
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Ha! You're right on the theme tweak. I guess they're related in that the voltage would affect the type of water pump. I've more or less decided to go with a dedicated 12 v system for the water, as the guy in Maier Hardware, Thunder Bay, suggested. It would look like this: Sand point-jet pump-generator would fill a holding tank on the back deck every few days. From there, a 12v pump to pressure tank (?) to PEX lines to in-line filters and propane heater (L7 for example) to showers/faucets. I think I'll need an under counter filter system for the stuff we'll drink. Still looking at the types of filters I'll need for the "main" lines and under the counter. Water is being tested as I type. That's about it! If you have any thoughts there, feel free to share them, but this is pretty much the direction I'm heading. Thanks for the input!
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