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groingo
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# Posted: 7 Oct 2013 21:55
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I built a self designed Propane Cooker/Heater and have been very impressed by how efficient and well it works especially while being ventless, on a bad month it is nearly 8 to 16 times more fuel efficient than any store bought Propane heaters.
Have tested for Carbon Monoxide with a Kidde, First Alert home Monoxide detectors and a Raytek laboratory quality tester and have yet to hear a beep or even a reading, so I contacted my local Fire Department who came and tested with their tester...still no readings so tomorrow I meet with Ferrelle gas guys who are bringing their test equipment since they made the Propane and we will then hopefully know where the Carbon Monoxide went?
If no reading I have a theory on what may be going on and it has to do with the baffle and the metal top shield itself which may actually be causing the Monoxide to be bonding to it (similar to the way a Catalytic Converter works on a car) or because of the baffle which like a modern wood stove which reburn's the gas's more completely, either way it is getting interesting to say the least.
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Just
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# Posted: 7 Oct 2013 22:36
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please be very carful , the product of burning propane can kill
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 7 Oct 2013 23:06 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: groingo where the Carbon Monoxide went?
It never went anywhere. Your burner never produced any.
Burning propane does not automatically lead to the production of CO. That is the only reason we do not have more fatalities due to non-vented heaters being used. Full combustion of propane does not produce CO; water and CO2 is produced. However, ideal conditions do not always exit.
Burning propane will cause CO to be produced if and when the propane / oxygen mix is too rich. In other words CO is only produced by incomplete combustion of the propane. Incomplete combustion can be caused by (1) the burner orifice being too large, or by the interior room (2) oxygen level having been depleted.
(1) is often a problem when using propane appliances at higher elevations than the appliance was designed for, or by an improperly tuned burner. (2) occurs more in small fairly airtight spaces where the oxygen in the air may be used up by one or more appliances, candles, oil lamps or people.
No real mystery there.
None of the above is meant to repudiate my opinions on whether or not non vented heaters are a good idea. I maintain they are not and do not use them myself. Why? Because, as that old 60's bumper stickers states; "$hit happens".
And just to be clear, I'm talking CO (carbon monoxide), not CO2 (carbon dioxide) which is produced whenever propane is burned.
Note that the burning of charcoal does produce CO at all times. That is the nature of a charcoal fire.
Another interesting meter to have would be a hygrometer, or humidity meter. The burning propane does produce 25 ounces of water vapor for every gallon of propane consumed. That is remaining inside with any non vented appliance.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 7 Oct 2013 23:49 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: groingo 8 to 16 times more fuel efficient than any store bought Propane heaters.
Comparing to vented heaters??
It is hard to beat physics. There are only so many BTU's in a given quantity of propane; 91,500 BTU for "standard" propane. That can vary some depending on the quality of the fuel. If the propane is fully combusted and there is no venting to the exterior than there should be no huge difference. If the non vented heater is not fully combusting the propane then it is producing CO and would be less efficient at warming the building. But if the factor was 8 to 16 I believe we would have people dieing by the carload.
IF one compares a vented appliance to a non-vented appliance then there can be noticeable differences in efficiency. But not by a factor of 8 to 16 times. I would need to see empirical evidence of that sort of difference. And you could become a rich man if that was true..
Your burner must be very well tuned to the altitude and the building must have a good enough fresh air exchange to not be producing CO. Let's call it 100% efficient.
The worst efficient direct wall heater or furnace will have an efficient of maybe 65% (my 30 year old RV was in that range); better ones will be in the 75 - 80% range. Highly efficient vented heaters can reach 90+%. Our home furnace is 95% and the new heater for the new RV has a rating of 93%.
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groingo
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2013 10:24 - Edited by: groingo
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Quoting: MtnDon 8 to 16 times more fuel efficient than any store bought Propane heaters.
That figure is based on comparable sized vented and un-vented open flame Propane heater printed information for heating a given area where the average fuel use keeps coming up the same 20 pounds consumption over 40 hours.
Mine has been burning 20 pounds in a worst case 30 days or one tank in 360 hours below 40 degrees outside temp and half that above 42 degrees outside.
Humidity varies greatly depending on weather conditions and stays consistent with outdoor humidity unless I close all vents and windows which is not an option.
Will see what the gas company comes up with for now but I can't deny the results but am very cautious about the test equipment and the results, it makes no sense to me either but, thats's how discoveries are made.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2013 14:15
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Quoting: groingo That figure is based on comparable sized vented and un-vented open flame Propane heater printed information for heating a given area where the average fuel use keeps coming up the same 20 pounds consumption over 40 hours.
It seems that many of the burn times listed are for how many hours at a constant full burn level. Not an on-off cycle or at lower settings.
Like this Mr Heater info; 3rd question down.
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groingo
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2013 17:58
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Yep, they are different than posted last season too.
Either way am going to forge ahead with one change, will be keeping the Wood Stove in place till this season is over and I get more hard evidence because I have little faith in modern electronics as everything has shown to be contrary to common sense gut feelings which I have much more faith in.
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