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groingo
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# Posted: 10 Oct 2013 10:57 - Edited by: groingo
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Had an enlightening visit with my doctor yesterday that really opened my eyes on Carbon Monoxide poisoning and how it works.
Bottom line is, by the time you notice symptoms it could already be too late.
The key is the way the Carbon Monoxide displaces Oxygen Molocule's in your blood and there is one muscle in your body that is
more sensitive than the others that can ruin your whole day and that is your heart....CM in the blood can cause Myocardial Infarction
in other word's your heart is starved for oxygen and it stops, lights out end of story.
So, until I can get irrefutable proof this heater is actually doing what it says, all instruments show zero CM including the one from the
Fire department and also the Health Department but again these are based on Electronic devices which I now have no faith in.
A sneak heart attack based on faulty electronic information is just not worth the risk, while I have used vented propane heaters, for me are simply too inefficient so I will be working on cleaning up the whole process of wood heating and getting more bang for the energy used to get and prepare the wood and tightening up the cabin as well.
This goes back to my favorite old saying that has worked well for more than fifty odd years, "When in Doubt...Throw it Out"!
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MJW
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# Posted: 10 Oct 2013 11:09
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Or as we used to say in the restaurant biz...
if there is a question...there is no question.
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rayyy
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# Posted: 10 Oct 2013 16:57
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Just as well to vent it outside.Pluss all that moisture generated from indoor gas flame's burning makes a mess inside all over your ceiling.
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MI drew
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# Posted: 10 Oct 2013 21:11
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They all have a chance... get wood burner, vented, or ventless heater and a couple CO2 detectors and just be smart. Just as many negative and positive articles on each method.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 10 Oct 2013 22:17
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Although I think the idea of a propane unvented heater is not good inside as a main unsupervised heat source, I think there are some misconceptions or incorrect terminology here. groingo, I cannot understand your lack of trust in the detectors. As was mentioned in the other thread on your setup, Carbon Monoxide (CO - not CO2) would not be expected if things are burning well. Carbon Dioxide (CO2) would be the natural by-product with water but you are testing for Carbon Monoxide. CO2 buildup has a risk but it is no where near as dangerous as CO (what your doctor discussed). After all you are breathing CO2 out all the time.
A number of the heater systems on the market have built in Oxygen sensors to shut down if Oxygen levels drop too low - not so much because of this being a great risk but this may start to cause CO production due to improper combustion. The body handles CO2 levels going up very well - this is actually a stronger signal for the brain to start breathing harder rather than a drop in Oxygen (this is why hyperventilating and holding your breath can cause you to pass out). Carbon Monoxide on the other hand will react within the body as Oxygen ( really O2) does so the body does not get Oxygen but thinks it has and you have no sense of needing to get more oxygen. This is why it will kill you in your sleep!
Carbon Monoxide detectors, not CO2 detectors, are vital and accurate whether you have a vented or non vented combustion system. A few years ago in our house our high efficiency vented propane furnace malfunctioned and my wife came home to hear all the CO detectors going off. An unvented system has a higher chance of causing a problem.
What ever you use - put a couple of Carbon Monoxide detectors in. If running gas add a gas/propane detector - not a big cost for the safety. Many many products now combine smoke and CO detectors in one.
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creeky
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2013 08:36
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"The body handles CO2 levels going up very well - this is actually a stronger signal for the brain to start breathing harder "
rising CO2 levels ... that must be why I breathe, pant, wheeze more when I'm doing my chores now
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razmichael
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2013 09:00
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Quoting: creeky rising CO2 levels ... that must be why I breathe, pant, wheeze more when I'm doing my chores now
That's my excuse as well - nothing to do with my age and lack of fitness.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2013 09:32 - Edited by: bldginsp
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Hello Raz-
A couple comments
Quoting: razmichael Carbon Monoxide (CO - not CO2) would not be expected if things are burning well
That's a big 'if'. There are plenty of things that can happen that aren't supposed to happen that could cause the combustion to start producing CO.
As well, I trust CO detectors too, but I can't tell you how many old smoke detectors I've found that were not working. CO detectors are new, the ones we see aren't very old yet, but that will change with time. The point is I don't want to trust my life to a little gadget that was working just fine- when it was new.
Groingo's basic point that by the time you experience symptoms it is too late is, for me, the operating principle. I would prefer to set it up so that by default it can't put CO in my house. An unvented appliance, by default, must put CO into my house IF something goes wrong. Then, if the battery is dead in the detector....
There was an article about how a squirrel made a nest in a standard forced air furnace, which was vented to the outside, and it somehow caused CO to get in the house. This is a highly unusual and unlikely circumstance, but still, they found the residents dead in their beds. Yuck.
Don't mess with gas or it will mess with you. We pipe some of the most dangerous stuff on earth directly into our homes and then expect everything to work just fine all the time.
Best laid plans of mice and men.
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2013 10:05
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so now you're back to your wood burner? 
Your unvented heater is most likely fine...when it's working 100% correctly. I asked myself if I would trust one running at night when I was sleeping, and the answer was absolutely not, which is why I installed a vented heater (in addition to my wood stove)
Even in my small cabin I have 2 CO/smoke detectors due to that law regarding Murphy...
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groingo
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2013 11:36 - Edited by: groingo
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Quoting: Dillio187 so now you're back to your wood burner? Your unvented heater is most likely fine...when it's working 100% correctly. I asked myself if I would trust one running at night when I was sleeping, and the answer was absolutely not, which is why I installed a vented heater (in addition to my wood stove) Even in my small cabin I have 2 CO/smoke detectors due to that law regarding Murphy...
For now I am going to use wood as backup (when I loose power) and electric as primary after figuring the numbers per month I will only be looking at maybe four dollars a month increase over what I have been paying for propane heat.
I am grid connected and have not been using it for a couple years but still have had to pay 8 dollars a month just to have it ready so I may as well use it since it is there.
I am going to keep working with the Propane on the side but I am going to have to take some real hard convincing that the results are valid....the price for error is just too high.
As far as CO detectors, I have had several Kidde and First Alert CO Alarms and if you read the information you will find they have a accuracy variant of %5 but if you read further they go on to say under Product Features and Specifications: Accuracy can vary due to atmosphereic pressure and humidity by as much as + or - 10 to 40% on top of the %5 and that is unacceptable for a tool that is supposed to protect you.
At this point I would trust no propane heater to run at night or when I am sleeping.
All I can say is to get educated in CO and its effects, there is a lot of good information out there and some of it is even true and NEVER trust the Government reports where they claim there have been ZERO deaths from propane heaters, look at where the agencies funding comes from and then keep looking.
Without sounding like I have gone completely Chuckle Headed all I will say to anyone is do your homework and when you think you've got it do it again!
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rockies
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2013 21:02
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A lot of people forget about the large amount of moisture (water vapour) released into the indoor environment by burning propane and how it negatively affects the structure and the occupants. I may have to use it for cooking, but I also wondered about how to heat the cabin and the domestic hot water without being hooked up to a utility company or having propane for that as well. I knew I didn't want the mess of a wood stove indoors (with soot, ash, wet wood, bugs and possible mold coming inside) so I compromised and decided on an indoor furnace that can be installed in a separate outbuilding.
http://www.profab.org/products/profabproducts/elite/
This way I can burn wood cleanly, heat the cabin and a couple of other buildings with radiant tubing, get free hot water, keep all the mess outside the living space and just use propane for cooking. Plus with the furnace in a small outbuilding you don't lose floor space in the cabin to a wood stove (having it just sit there dead in summer because you don't need the heat) or having to fire it up and blast the entire cabin with dry heat when all you need is hot water for showers or laundry. If anyone has used this system already I'd like to know.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2013 01:49
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CO detectors have a finite life; currently about 5 years. We have two CO detectors in the cabin and at home. They have been rotated in and out of service with new ones every 4 years on a 2 year off set. Date placed into service is marked with a Sharpie.
Smoke alarms have an 8 to 10 year life these days. We rotate those out on a 4 year offset.
We do that on the anniversary of the homeowners insurance.
I have complete faith that with two units from obviously different manufacturing batches we will have a working unit at all times. I know the units do perform as we have had two alarms widely separated in time. One was do to starting a propane fridge without having cleaned the flue prior to the restart after a 5 month off period. The other was due to CO from an old kerosene heater in the workshop. Workshop now has a direct vent gas heater.
Groingo, I maintain that your home made heater was more than likely working fine and that is why all those test meters came up with no CO readings. Once again, CO is not a normal product of propane combustion. BUT it can occur and IS very deadly. I have tried to impress this danger many times over many years here on this forum and on others. I guess much of that effort was missed by some. It is why I generally detest non vented heaters. Not because they do produce CO, but because they CAN produce CO under the right conditions. As was pointed out too, I also maintain that production of water vapor is a non recognized problem/result of propane combustion.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2013 01:53
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Quoting: groingo NEVER trust the Government reports where they claim there have been ZERO deaths from propane heaters
I do not believe there are any official government claims to that effect. I could be wrong and would be most interested in seeing those. I have seen claims from the non-vented heater manufacturer association that non vented heaters are safe. And that I DO contest. I believe self serving industrial organizations less than I believe most government.
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groingo
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2013 10:44 - Edited by: groingo
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Quoting: MtnDon I do not believe there are any official government claims to that effect. I could be wrong and would be most interested in seeing those. I have seen claims from the non-vented heater manufacturer association that non vented heaters are safe. And that I DO contest. I believe self serving industrial organizations less than I believe most government.
Need to dig a bit deeper this is a direct quote by the CPSC:
Once appliances are in the U.S. marketplace, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is the primary safety "watchdog", accumulating product safety data from numerous sources, and investigating and reporting the safety record of various product categories. What does CPSC data reveal about vent-free gas appliances? The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) has stated that it is not aware of any documented incident in the CPSC In-Depth Investigation (IDI) database of fatal CO poisoning associated with an ODS-equipped vent-free gas heating product. These appliances have earned an outstanding safety record.
See more at: http://www.ventfree.org/index.php
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Truecabin
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2013 18:01
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Quoting: MtnDon I believe self serving industrial organizations less than I believe most government.
same here don but the industrial organizations are using the right politicians to make their government recommendations thats one of the reasons government information is questionable
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2013 20:51 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: Truecabin same here don but the industrial organizations are using the right politicians to make their government recommendations thats one of the reasons government information is questionable
it's the old follow the money thing... It is sad but our government is paid for by the lobbyists with the deepest pockets. Just learn to be skeptical.
Re the CPSC and unvented heaters... Maybe there have been no recorded deaths attributable to an unvented heater equipped with an ODS. I can't say I found any death stories. But by the same token they do not tell us how many heaters equipped with ODS have had the fuel shutoff due to low oxygen levels. That would be interesting to know. I think it would be safe to say that anyone whose heater shut off because of the ODS activating was also exposed to a level of CO. It never killed them, but it was not a good thing to experience.
and that link, http://www.ventfree.org/index.php , is one of those organizations that is owned by the manufacturers who want to sell products. Not an unbiased group, nor one that necessarily has our best interests at heart.
Domain Name:VENTFREE.ORG
Created On:20-Jul-2001 14:37:22 UTC
Last Updated On:15-Jul-2013 17:23:25 UTC
Expiration Date:20-Jul-2014 14:37:22 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:eNom, Inc. (R39-LROR)
Status: OK
Registrant ID:23765835-NSI
Registrant Name:TheGasAppliance Manufacturers Assoc.
Registrant Organization:TheGasAppliance Manufacturers Assoc.
Registrant Street1:1901 North Moore St., Suite 11
Registrant City:Arlington
Registrant State/Province:VA
Registrant Postal Code:22209
Registrant Country:US
Arlington, VA ... right next door to congress's back pocket..
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MI drew
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# Posted: 14 Oct 2013 21:08
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I just put up a new battery operated CO detector this weekend at the cabin and it expires in 10years. It has a display that shows the CO levels made by Kiddie.
Here's a little more fuel to add to the fire. There are roughly 112,000 fires caused by wood or coal burners. You have a better chance of dying in a fire with those than non-fire CO. More studies below.
www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/466.html
http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/News-Releases/1982/CPSC-Chairman-Warns-Of-Coal-And-Wo od-Burning-Stove-Hazards/
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