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mattd
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2014 12:26
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My plan for non-drinking water at the cabin is to build a 6ft tall stand to put a 55g plastic drum on top of. 10' behind the cabin it will be uphill enough to gravity feed the sink and an outdoor shower. i have a 30g drum to fill with the hose at home to refill the 55g one at the cabin as needed.
my questions is how do you keep water out there without growing algae? again, not for drinking, just dishes, shower, clean up, etc.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2014 13:31
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Keep the water clean and keep sunlight away. Algae need light, if it's in total darkness algae can't grow.
Have you considered building a roof over the drum and collecting rain water? Save you moving a lot of water....
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Mann
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2014 13:34
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Just a splash of bleach once a week or so.
Splash is just a couple ounces
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SandyR
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2014 16:10
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We put up a rain barrel at the cabin one weekend and we were shocked that it filled completely up by the next weekend. Our barrel doesn't let light in and the nights get super cold.
Wouldn't you use the water before it grew algae? Or don't you use that much?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 14:03
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I have a 2500 gallon black poly tank in an enclosed shed, so no light hits the water. I don't use a lot so it just sits. Any way you collect rainwater some organic material will get in there, which is what algae and bacteria eat. But my water seems to stay fresh, I've never used chlorine, and I don't drink the water.
One thing about chlorine is that it combines with organic compounds to form chloramines which are carcinogens. So if you can avoid chlorine it's better. But of I was going to have a bunch of people there I'd use the chlorine for sure. If you do I suggest you carefully measure rather than guess how much you use. I think the recommended ratio is one in 20,000, which makes one pint for a 2500 gallon tank. A couple 'splashes' in a 55 gallon tank is probably a lot more than you need.
Just a splash of vermouth, shaken, not stirred.
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Mann
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 14:29
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 So were gonna get cancer from doing the dishes and cleaning with a little bleach water?
He said he was going to bring the water from home,
chances are it is already chlorinated anyway.
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creeky
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 14:34
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I like my martini's dry. waving the bottle at it will do. -- Thurston Howell III
it's two or three tablespoons for a 55 gallon barrel of water to make it safe to drink.
also. the blue barrels if you can find them are hdpe2 (food safe) and the blue colour gives off a UV light into the interior (or so I've been told). ideal for water storage.
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Mann
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 14:37
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Two or Three? We do apparently need to be precise
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 15:01
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Quoting: Mann He said he was going to bring the water from home, chances are it is already chlorinated anyway.
And while chlorination of water can eliminate many disease problems some folks still believe that chlorine in any quantity is best avoided whenever possible. We are two of those folks. So at home all water passes through a RO (reverse osmosis) system. Even the bath and shower water as there are also some beliefs that inhaling the chlorinated steam can be detrimental. All that said we do use chlorine to periodically clean out the RO water system and storage.
Add 1⁄8 teaspoon (or 8 drops) of regular, unscented, liquid household bleach for each gallon of water, or 2 ounces per 55 gallons.
See this link, scroll down to chart The chart assumes the use of standard, non scented, bleach whose label lists a sole active ingredient of 5-6% sodium hypochlorite.
We prefer to keep away from chemicals any time we can.
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Mann
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 15:08
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Quoting: Mann Splash is just a couple ounces
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bobrok
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 16:15
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I have been adding 1/4 oz. of 6% solution per 55 gal. bbl. for several years now. I use an old turkey baster to measure accurately.
This was the textbook recommendation given me by a water filtration company, and its worked well. I've never had an algae issue, and no chlorine odor. My blue barrels are in a shed so there is never a sunlight issue. If the water has been in storage for many weeks (say a month or more) I'll add a bit more chlorine depending on how much water is in the barrel.
I also rinse out the barrels with a somewhat stronger chlorine solution in the spring and flush them before the first fill of the season.
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creeky
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 17:25
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mann. the reason I say 2 or 3 tablespoons is bleach is typically found in a range of 5 to 8% solution. unt now I get out mine atomic measuring device, ya?
while ounces is an harder to measure quantity. unt now vee use der turkey baster. (thx bobrok)
and the other reason I say tblspoons is in the past people have posted that they are putting 1/4 cup of bleach in per barrel. so sometimes precision is a way of reducing exaggeration.
mtn don makes a good point in adding "non scented"
and nobody needs their kids to swim in cancer causing agents. er. wait a minute. that's every kid in a swimming pool. I vill call zee board of health immeeeediately.
bobrok pretty much covers it tho.
btw. blue green algae (the long stringy stuff) if you're using a sand prefilter on your rain water (recommended). it cleans and purifies your water of a variety of ills and is actually what you want.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 18:55
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This issue of the correct amount of chlorine to use is somewhat baffling- I get a lot of different info.
The Texas Manual on Rainwater Harvesting says to use 2 fluid ounces in 1000 gallons of water to achieve 1 ppm (part per million) required for disinfection. That's 1/4 cup in 1000 gallons. That's far less than any descriptions on this thread.
For my martinis I dip a toothpick in vermouth, shake it off, then toss it in the shaker with shaved ice (not cubed) and shake gently only twice and strain immediately.
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SE Ohio
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 19:12 - Edited by: SE Ohio
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For my martinis I dip a toothpick in vermouth, shake it off, then toss it in the shaker with shaved ice (not cubed) and shake gently only twice and strain immediately.
That explains a lot 
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bobrok
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 19:27
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Quoting: bldginsp This issue of the correct amount of chlorine to use is somewhat baffling- I get a lot of different info.
You're right. I think the important thing to get out of this thread is to not over-chlorinate the water. I don't think there is much of a difference between, say, adding 1/8 oz. or 1/4oz. or 1/2 oz. per 55 gallon barrel, but I've known too many people to severely over-chlorinate by adding cups and pints of chlorine to their water. That, IMO, is bordering on unhealthy.
Plus they smell like a laundromat.
Now, you can take this FWIW, coming from someone who, to the best of his recollection, has never had a martini in his entire life!
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SandyR
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 22:20
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Mntdon my benign thyroid tumor has been directly linked to the amount of chorine I have been exposed to. I am trying my best to remove as much chorine out of my life as I can like you have done. I will get the tumor measured again in a few months to see of I was able to shrink it so that I don't need to have surgery to have it removed.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2014 22:22
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Sorry to hear about your thyroid issues, but that does reinforce the idea that the fewer environmental chemicals we encounter, the better.
All our best to you.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2014 11:30 - Edited by: bldginsp
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I think it's very easy to use way too much chlorine when sanitizing water. If I do so, I plan to use the bare minimum by doing careful calculations based on the 1ppm ratio, even if that means using an eyedropper to measure it out. Chlorine is scary stuff, but used in small quantities it is safe for most people, I guess.
But maybe it's like radiation- there is no safe level- all you can do is limit your exposure.
Quoting: bobrok I don't think there is much of a difference between, say, adding 1/8 oz. or 1/4oz. or 1/2 oz. per 55 gallon barrel, but I've known too many people to severely over-chlorinate by adding cups and pints of chlorine to their water. That, IMO, is bordering on unhealthy.
Let's do a little math, based on 1ppm, or 2 fluid oz. 6% liquid sodium hypochlorite per 1000 gallons, to see what will give 1ppm for 55 gallons.
1000/55= 18.2
2 oz/18.2=.1oz chlorine for 55gal for 1ppm
One tablespoon = .5oz, a teaspoon is 1/3 a tablespoon, so a teaspoon is 1/6 oz. What we are trying to achieve is 1/10 ounce, so a fat half teaspoon is correct for 1ppm in 55 gal.
Bobrok was right on with 1/8oz for 55gal.
That's not a lot and I can see people not believing it is adequate, and so adding more. Also, when sanitizing 5 gallon containers the amount involved is so small it's hard to measure. It would be 1/100th oz. There are 500 drops per oz, so sanitizing a 5 gallon container takes 5 drops from an eyedropper.
Another way to look at it is simply 1 drop per gallon, 500 drops per oz, and a tablespoon is 1/2 oz.
I don't like the 'just a splash' theory, except for martinis.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2014 18:25
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And so how long dose it take for that 1\2 teaspoon to degrade if i use and replace 10 gallons a week in a 55 gallon tank ?
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2014 19:45 - Edited by: bldginsp
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Good question, i dont know. I guess the assumption is that once you treat a given container of water, you use that up, refill, re-treat, repeat. If you take some out and replace some, you have diluted the chlorine mix, and then there's the question of whether the original chlorine you added is good anymore or has evaporated. If the added water is suspect, it has to be exposed to 1ppm to get treated.
Another thing I read on some EPA web page is that they issue maximum levels of chlorine for municipal supplies, at 4ppm. They say 1ppm minimum to sanitize, but no more than 4ppm. The reason is that over that level the chlorine starts to be harmful, in their judgement, based on 'the science'. The chlorine combines with organic stuff in the water to form trihalomethanes or something or other which is carcinogenic. So anyway I strongly suggest that if you use chlorine you very carefully do the math and measure accurately to keep the level between 1 and 4 ppm.
'Just a splash' is kind of risky when one tablespoon in 55 gallons exceeds the limit required of municipal water supplies.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2014 19:47
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Quoting: Just And so how long dose it take for that 1\2 teaspoon to degrade if i use and replace 10 gallons a week in a 55 gallon tank
I would use 2 barrels and alternate
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FishHog
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2014 20:28
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go to you local pool store and buy a bottle of test strips. They will give you readings for 0.5ppm and up. Adjust as necessary. I use them daily in my indoor pool and keep it just under 1ppm. Which is about 1/2cup to my 3000gal pool. Once you get a feel for how much bleach raises your ppm level, its simple to keep at the right level.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2014 16:29
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In light of the above comments I want to run something by everyone.
As the year progresses I notice a yellow film on the bottom of my barrels. Since the outtake nipple inside protrudes up a bit this doesn't get introduced into the water flow. It just sits there and gets yellower as the season goes on.
Is this residual chlorine? Does it fall out of suspension?
Any thoughts?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2014 17:28
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Have you eliminated plain sediment as the cause?
What is your water source?
I wonder if, after the chlorine combines with organic material in the water to form carcinogenic compounds, that the new compounds can now settle out. But that's a blind guess.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2014 18:09 - Edited by: bobrok
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Quoting: bldginsp Have you eliminated plain sediment as the cause?
Well, yes, I think I have. I had this very water tested for solids contamination at a lab. My score was 33 on a scale of 0 - 500. Very clean, and I even impressed the tester with the clarity.
So....I dunno, gotta dig deeper into chlorine, I would guess!
Edit: Sorry, my water source is a motorless 1mile long lake in the Adk. Mtns. of NYS
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2014 18:38 - Edited by: bldginsp
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If there is very little sediment in the water to begin with, the chlorine has little to bond to. Chlorine itself won't settle out, I'm pretty sure it just evaporates.
Are there fish in the lake? 
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2014 18:49
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Chlorine will dissipate in 24 hours after being drawn and left in an open container.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2014 19:48 - Edited by: bobrok
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Just to answer your questions and comments, yes there are fish in the lake, but I don't see how chlorine can evaporate out of a closed drum, and as far as open water and chlorine, my swimming pool at home will attest to the fact that chlorine dissipates, but I thought it was due more to sunlight exposure. At least that is my pool experience. I go through much more chlorine when the sun shines.
Anybody here a chemist? Or at least a chemistry major?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2014 19:55
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Chlorine gets used up when there are things in the water to oxidize. Sunlight makes algae, etc grow more. Kids/people use the pool more when it is sunny; more 'stuff' in there to get rid of.
When disinfecting emergency supplies of water the usual instructions include a statement to smell the treated water after 30 minutes. If there is no faint trace of chlorine odor then add some more chlorine. We can't see all of whatever it is in the water that might make us sick, so in the absence of instruments and tests the recommendations err on the side of water safety.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2014 19:56 - Edited by: bldginsp
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not a chemist, but I can mix a good martini
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