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MtnDon
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2014 23:20
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This may be a strange / odd question, but what is the reason for doing off grid power in the first place? Too high a cost for grid tie like in our case; $55K. Or just a desire to be off grid?
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creeky
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# Posted: 14 Nov 2014 12:55
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The thing about Matrix and the other guy, they are canadian and so the systems are engineered for our climate. 10k for a 1300 watt system tho. sheesh. at least they got the batts sized right.
Great price on the Surrettes it seems. FLA looks so good until you look at lifespan/maintenance/storage/etc. But hey, you save money in the short term.
I have a set of 6 crown 395s I'll give you a good deal on. 600 bucks. they are 4 years old (and a bit) but would get you through the winter and then some. I do amuse myself. okay 400.
ps - 3 day reserve is kinda old school from when panels were expensive. run the genny if need be. In this part of Ontario for 9.5 months of the year all you'll need is 1 day.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 14 Nov 2014 18:56 - Edited by: Steve_S
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When Hydro One hit $42,000 I hurt myself laughing at the guy who's rhyming off the numbers of every itty bitty effin bit of "if the hydro worker farts it's 50 bux" crud... ever so "I've done this a 1000 times and it's the same schtick"... I knew this was the route to go...
I'm sure I posted in here my power usage somewhere... it's average 11 kWh/day in my 3br townhouse with inefficient electric appliances with the heaviest 16 kWh/day...
Do have the genny and with this type of system, charging should be peachy.
Yeah... 10k for 1.3kw...
Dommel Valley 1500-48 3.6kWac $8,450.00
Another is SolarTrader with even higher prices 12K+ 1.2Kw to 1.5Kw but the differences in batteries and some of the components...
The original config with Magnum Inverter suggested to me is almost identical but substantially less... Like this one for 13K Solar Traders 1.29Kw
Is the difference my panels, the batteries or ?
I feel better about using all one family though... but that's my computer systems engineering "past life".
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2014 09:14 - Edited by: Steve_S
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Quick Q's for Creeky & MtnDon or anyone else...
DNM Solar (Canada) so far is giving the best of numbers. Their quote is with 4 4000 Series Surrette High Capacity 6V 550Ah batteries. @$327 ea.
We all know Surrette's are good products by their rep... so no question as to that...
We can possibly afford to add 4 more (so 8 for $2600) which is pushing the budget envelope quite a bit at this time.
The Q's:
What if we went 6 Batteries ? or 8 Batteries ?
Would that be a good direction to go with those batteries or would another battery pack setup for the amount of $ give / provide better results ?
What would the better config be with this setup, Series, Parallel, or combo of both Series & Parallel... I have read in my reference books pros cons of the 3 configs and they seems to not coincide... Even more confusion / opinions on the Interweb... Grrrr (too many armchair geniuses, rather than practical experience do'ers, me thinks).
I suspect that some of the confusion is because some batteries work better in certain configs while others in different configs. And of course there is the whole charging issues etc but with the Outback systems, I don't see that as a major issue as they seem to have the "possibilities" well figured out.
Thanks guys.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2014 09:52 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Choose 8 for 48 volts or 4 for 24 volts IMO. 6= 36 volts and that makes finding inverters harder.
Try hard to Avoid having any parallel battery connections. It really is better. There is a certain amount of luck involved with parallel. Using buss bars as connection points can also help in a parallel situation.
There are even 2 volt cells, 12 in series = 24 volts; 4 volt batteries, 6 in series = 24 volts... and higher amps capacity so no parallels are needed.
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creeky
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2014 11:53
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That Dommel looks good until you get to the batteries. Super nice was the fact that it comes assembled. Plug and play.
Power: You have two choices, as I see it.
One. Get four batteries (at 550a and 24v). Beat the beejumpers out of them. and you will. In two to 3 years when they die buy a better battery pack. This is what most RV/boaters did before LFP. Now they go LFP.
Get 8 batteries now all in series (550a and 48v). Or 4 more later and do parallel strings. I'm not as hung up on parallel strings. Yes series is said to be better. yes, thousands of folks use parallel strings.
(Both MtnDon and I use 3 parallel strings. That is in no way an endorsement, just showing how common it is).
so adding 4 more batteries later (within a year) isn't a terrible idea.
the reason I like idea #1, is you'll come to understand what a PITA FLA is. After 3 years you can go LFP. So save the 1300 towards your LFP pack.
Of course TESLA is building a "mega" battery factory, but I have heard that there are a couple of huge LFP factories coming online in 2015 so we can probably expect a price drop. And the buzz in the industry says the same. I have yet to verify the price drop ... but one source was pretty reliable. And Germany is talking seriously about distributed storage. So if they make a move ...
That DNM system looks good. How assembled is it? It can take quite a bit of time to assemble these things. Risk of magic smoke, etc. So this is a key question for a guy with time constraints ...
good luck
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2014 19:44 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: creeky (Both MtnDon and I use 3 parallel strings. That is in no way an endorsement, just showing how common it is).
And I will never do it again if there is any other viable alternative... Now have three cells dropping below the others. Come spring it'll probably be reduced to a two parallel string bank that will have to work harder.
5 1/2 - 6 years ago I thought the parallel string thing was BS. About a year ago my batteries began to convince me otherwise. Therefore what I suggest when people ask for advice is to try and steer them away from maoking a possible serious error. There are others, someone here in fact, who used to have a parallel set and had problems with cells getting "lazy".
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2014 23:13
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Well I contacted the vendor and his response was:
6Vx550Ahx50%=1650Wh of usable power x4 = 6600Wh of available power x93% efficiency = ~6100Wh available at the output of the VFX3524 outback.
If you had no charging solution ( just as an example ) 6100Wh24h = 255W to use every hour.
- With Solar added into the picture, if sunny during the day the 255W in the battery will shift to the night time.
- Winter time 4 hours ave sun light... 24h/day – 4 hours = 20 hours... 6100Wh/20h = 305W to use every hour.
- Summer time ~10 hours of sun... 14 of dark... 6100/14 = 435W to use during the night every hour.
With 8 batteries x2 the numbers above.
Most likely at night time you will not use this much power, bunch of lights, Computer, TV... 4-6 hours and then 12AM –1:00 AM just fridge, Fan, etc...
8 will be a comfortable setup.
I recommend 48V battery setup.
With one FM80 you will be able to put up to 4KW of solar panels if you needed that in the future.
Dunno, maybe a tad optimistic on the amount of juice avail but. But you guys have made me a BIT MORE CONFUSED about series, parallel, parallel-series... It's also quite late and it's been a long day in the cold...
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beachman
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# Posted: 16 Nov 2014 10:17
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Has anyone created a power station remote from their cabin, then run power to the cabin? I have an ideal place for solar panels about 400ft from my cabin but running wires from there to my cabin even with 48vlts, would be fairly costly. I was thinking, why not create a power center at the panels with the battery bank and inverter and run a smaller set of wires to the cabin. Any thoughts on this?
Right now I have a panel on our beach that gets full sun for about 1/2 to 2/3 of the day due to tree cover. The mppt charge controller actually works all day in the light but really cooks in the full sun.
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creeky
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# Posted: 16 Nov 2014 10:44
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Ah. It's a tough decision. You have to balance cost and lifespan. With many unknowns. tricky.
In your favour is that you will likely use around 3-4 kw /day with careful mgt. I use 2 to 2.5. I even squeak by on 1.5 in the cloudiest days of winter by not watching tv and limiting my internet time. so ...
50% dod on lead acid is what I recommended in option One, previous post. Beat the batteries up. To get 8 years of life from a battery in a RE situation you don't discharge beyond 20%.
From Surrette's info on their batteries: at 50% dod you get 1300 cycles. Or 3.5 years. At 20% dod 5.7 years. I didn't realize they were so conservative. Cool.
Btw. Surrette says the amp hr capacity of the 550 is 428. So the numbers sent to you are inflated by 20%.
Now you're beginning to see why I like LFP. Balqon says their battery at 50% dod will get 5000 cycles. Or 14 years. that's 4x the lifespan. For, admittedly, 3x the cost.
To run a quick comparison.
The 18tr LFP from balqon runs 6.6k US. It gives you 9 kw at 50% dod for 14 years.
8 Surrettes (2600) gives you 9kw at 40% dod. Or 4 years.
So you'll be on your 4th set to = 1 lfp pack. Or 10,400. Plus the hassle of moving 1000 lbs of lead. Watering. Etc.
But I like the 2.5 inches of water above the plates on the Surrettes. That is well suited to off grid life. You'll only have to top up 4 or 5 times a year.
And if you do keep your power use around 3-4kw you will be cycling at around 20% on 8 batteries (6 year life, probably quite conservative, but...) or 40% on 4 batteries (3-4 year life).
Good luck.
MtnDon. Do you think your GC2s have reached the limit of their lifespan? You use your batteries seasonally, so a lower cycle count, but GC2s ...
I wonder too, You say you don't equalize regularly. Could monthly equalizing have extended their life by reducing sulphation?
As you know, equalizing both softens the plates; but is said to attract some of the sloughed off material back on to the plates. You mention your water going grey... might be interesting to remove the two failing batteries, equalize them, perhaps more than once, and see if there's a decline in the floating material.
* for others following along. LFP also offers 70% dod at 3000 cycles. So if you occasionally need more power you can take it out without damaging your battery pack. Destructive testing has run LFP to 100% dod with 2000 cycles.
FLA lifespan at 100% dod cycle life is around 3-400 cycles. 1/5th the lifespan at best.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 16 Nov 2014 11:28 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Info on parallel batteries from Tom Duffy, with 40+ years in the battery business.
And the same guy on equalizing batteries
All FLA batteries develop grey lead deposits on the underside of the caps over time. All FLA will show a grey tint to the electrolyte after equalizing over a period of time. Tom does not come out and say that in anything written but that is a normal part of FLA operation. I also have that from another source, a guy with a couple decades of working with off grid systems with FLA batteries.
My GC2's probably still have at least a couple years of life in them; not actually bad when they have already reached age 64 months while many do not come close. No oververt signs of sulfation, the cell plate tops are nice and clean, almost like new. Three cells simply do not come up as quickly as the others do. Funny thing is they look the same as the others. Who knows what lurks under the surface.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 16 Nov 2014 11:38 - Edited by: MtnDon
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light grey electrolyte coloration
note that red coloration of electrolyte is an indication of overcharging; too high a charge current. I know someone who did that / has that. He was way over-paneled with multiple CC's in order to shove a whole lot of power into the batteries with limited sun hours from being in a canyon.
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creeky
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2014 08:14
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Beachman I have a solar shed that houses my panels and all my stuff. then I dug trenches for the AC. You're right, way easier to run the higher voltage AC. I used 10 and 12 gauge underground cable to reduce voltage drop. My furthest receptacle is about 200 ft away from the solar station.
You might also look into the new high voltage DC controllers. Morningstar has one that goes up to 600v. That would let you use (at a more reasonable 450v) 10 gauge feeder to run your 400 ft to your solar controller/inverter/etc.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2014 11:07 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: beachman Has anyone created a power station remote from their cabin, then run power to the cabin?
How many amps worth of 120 VAC power would you need to supply from the "power shed" to the cabin? Both the average or usual amperage load as well as the maximum at one time load. Wire size can be calculated for a certain percentage voltage drop. With 120 VAC it is preferable to keep the drop to 5% (120 becomes 113), but many items can still operate at up to 10% (120 becomes 108) drop. Just not as efficiently. Look at the specs on devices... some give a range, like 108 to 132 on my Iota battery charger.
400 feet, 120 VAC, 10 amps, 10% voltage drop = #10 awg wire. 5% = #6 awg.
400 feet, 120 VAC, 5 amps, 10% drop = #12 awg. 5% drop = #10 awg.
400 feet, 120 VAC, 15 amps, 10% drop = #8 awg. 5% drop = #6 awg.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2014 14:18
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Just a point to consider / ponder... Beachman. If your laying subterranean wire, this is an operation you only want to do ONCE. Imagine the "Drunken Sailor Talk" you'd have if you had to dig it up again.
I have several friends who are electrician (commercial & residential) and I posed a similar question to them, unanimously they agreed that "over wiring" to as big a cable for the run as possible as you have no clue to what you'll add in the future...
My distance from Clear Hilltop with open south face is 350 feet to "shack". I will not be using that option now as my land config has changed and given where I will be putting my panels (top of Sea Can) to pump house is 45' (including underground conduit run). The pump house will hold the batteries, chargers, inverters etc... so only panel juice to P.H..
@MtnDon & Creeky:
The last 24 hours has thrown some very very bad mojo in my direction... We have the temp build shelter (32x11) up & sealed in as of yesterday (in the rain/snow) BUT Murphy's Laws being applied in other sectors, this project goes to "crawl mode" for the next 5 months (health issues, ruckus, stuckus, frickus, fruckus). I'll be renting an apartment (eeks) for 6 months while health issues are being resolved again, while doing basic works on the property as I can. At least I'll only be about 15/20 minutes from the property...
Steve
The Good Part, is that this will give me a bit more time to sort out some details properly and not have to be operating in fast-response / reaction mode...
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2014 15:15
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Quoting: Steve_S The Good Part, is that this will give me a bit more time to sort out some details properly and not have to be operating in fast-response / reaction mode...
Most often better to take time and not be in a rush 
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2014 08:14
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No doubt about that MtnDon. I really hate "rushing" into things and this was an extreme rush but things sometimes happen out of our personal controls as it were.
Yep, more time to plan out a several things and to collect up stuff for the build.
The whole solar thing can now be better thought out and implemented when the time is right.
Not like I have a shortage of "to-do's" over winter... like hauling out the standing dead and dead fallen Cedars & Pines getting them to the sawing areas... Much easier to haul out the logs on sled as opposed to dragging through thick underbrush.
Got "almost" stuck twice yesterday in the snow too... driveway, everything is up-hill and 2wd truck with empty box on wet snow up-hill not so good.
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creeky
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2014 15:46
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Hey Steve. Glad to hear you're taking a bit more planning time. The best way to waste money is to rush. No big news there.
Glad to hear you're sealed in. Managed the same on my hay rack. Now the chalet, as it's winter. URL
I'll plan to put up a thread on the hay rack / chalet later ... but I built with this idea of a "Perfect wall." You bet. Something for you to look at. See building science and perfect wall. It totally rocks.
And I laughed when I saw your "almost" stuck. I moved out here with a rear wheel drive truck. And sold it and bought 4x4 after my wife had to tow me out of a mess with her toyota echo.
she still bugs me about it.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2014 20:25 - Edited by: Steve_S
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a@Creeky... I looked that that Perfect Wall stuff you mentioned... So Advanced Wall Framing System... okay... I thought at first you were talking about some form of SIP or something. Advanced Framing is NOT new, in fact it is older than standard Stick Framing 16oc... Regardless, my intention is ADV Framing System anyways as it is most efficient and cost effective. No point in wasting wood & chopping up insulation because of it.
Re Truck: Well it's a 98 Mazda B4000 2WD in serious need of real truck tires (winter ones) but this ^#^*&()(*& only has 14" wheels on it, so it's Rims & Rubbers to at least 15" but 225/75R14 to 15's will mean having to do the math to ensure I mess up the ratio and throw the speedo off too much, and of course close to $750 - $900 but 6 sand bags and getting the Cap back on would help on that. I have a PT Cruiser with snows that handles snow like nothing BUT it needs an Alternator (royal PITA on that darned thing) and $500 in for that...
The "Cabin" will be completed this spring but I will continue to work on the property through winter as I have to sled in (from my bush) the dead standing & fallen Cedars for cutting to 18" lengths & splitting...
Hey at least this winter I'll be able to blog everything I did this fall and all that complete with a myriad of photo's. I just have to find some place that won't ask me for all my personal details as I wish to keep my privacy mine.
Good Going on your cabin, hope it keeps you well... Typar isn't a great insulation 
As you can see, we got in "Just Under the Wire" with the Shelter.
ANYWAYS, This is getting far off topic... Back in the Ugly Big City and finishing "dumping" the townhouse contents and on Friday moving to the Apartment in the little village not far from Cabin Site. Won't be travelling back to the city of 1 Million Plus again unless I absolutely and totally have to... and even then it will take some coercion to do so...
Shelter UP safe & sound (SUNDAY)
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Monday after Mother Nature had her first Hissy Fit !
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