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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2015 18:01
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So, if some of you remember at the beginning of this odyssey, my idea was to use a waterless, solar-powered toilet system and greywater filtering system that has actually been approved as an onsite septic in a number of countries because it uses moss to treat the water. Perfect for the very small amount of wastewater that I will be producing daily (about 25 gallons).
But, nooooo, says the DEQ. You MUST go through the process, have the test pits dug, site evaluation, yada-yada-yada, and THEN you can only use the products approved by the state to install the septic system, whether it be standard or an alternative system. I even spoke with the onsite coordinator in Salem and she wouldn't budge.
OK, so I plan to do that. And I take a gander at the products approved by the state for planning and budgeting purposes. Sigh, they're all for big output and systems. There isn't one septic tank or alternative system that is designed for a small cabin or tiny house. The smallest approved septic tank is 400 gallons.
Now, from what I've been reading, for a septic system to operate correctly, too big is almost as bad as too small. I can understand their concern about what happens if more people or rooms are added to the house and would go bigger than what I actually need but, even then, it's unreasonable to go that much bigger considering the water situation in that area. Wells are expensive because of rock, rainfall isn't copious, and cistern is the best option. This drives water conservation.
Ironically, my best bet seems to be an alternative system called Puraflo which uses a septic tank to separate solids and then gravity to pipe the water through a tank that uses -- HEH -- special moss to clean the water prior to discharge. And the water is so clean that it can be used for drip irrigation and such.
In other words, that system (aside from the septic tank) is EXACTLY the greywater system I wanted to use in my cabin but much, much BIGGER! They're requiring the septic tank to use with it be 1050 gallons! I'm banging my head against the wall at this point.
But since it IS an approved system, I'm wondering if, after I have the test pits and site evaluation done, I can apply for some sort of special exception, variance, or something to alter the size of the septic tanks (you need 2) installed with that system to match my use?
Honestly, everything they require is overkill and I have literally read every single freaking product on their list, plus the regs. Clearly, they were developed with average-sized single family homes, and families of 4, in mind.
The irony is that the State of Oregon is officially on this push to get the citizenry to consider living in smaller homes and they're actually interested in tiny homes and tiny house communities. They need to get their regs up to speed on that!
Ideas, anyone?
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Gary O
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2015 18:38
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Not sure about now, but a few years ago you could overrule the state with Fed regs in regard to, say, a composting toilet.......
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2015 19:13
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Julie2Oregon
You are correct about everything being designed for the bigger homes. The people on this site are leading a new trend in our country, build smaller, build one bedroom, etc. Thru most of our lives, its always build bigger. A lot of states have that 1000 gallon tank as minimum. It comes from the fact you need two days of storage in a tank and the most common house for the past 50+ years is a minimum of three bedrooms. All these systems are designed on number of bedrooms in the structure.
Standard design is 100 gallons per day per person. So a one bedroom structure ( do not gig me for actual number of occupancy), this is state design guidelines, would be two people times two days for a need of your 400 gallon tank. the Absorption field would be designed on these "loads" also.
At least the cost between your 1000 gallon tank and your 400 gallon tank is not a deal killer, I would supplest $ 300-400 separation in cost of product. I do not understand why you would consider anything in the absorption field except regular field lines. why pay the cost of that Puraflo? it will require to be maintained down the road.
The best product for absorption fields in my part of the world is a product called infiltrator chamber. Cost is about $ 5 a foot for the product and all you do is dig a trench and place it in the trench and cover it. If you were moving to my state and I could get it approved for a one bedroom cabin with the 400 gallon tank, it would take about $ 1200-1400 for the material and about another $ 1000 to have someone do the installation, but you are off to Oregon.
That coordinator you mentioned will have a list of Engineers that do work in the community. They will not give you a recommendation most of the time, but ask her which are the top 3 on the list. Call one of these guys on the phone and explain what you are trying to accomplish. Due to budget constraints in my state, they have changed the rules here recently. I am being told that if I design that 400 gallon tank on the one bedroom with the proper amount of absorption field and put my engineer seal on it that it has been designed by and engineer. No one here has tested the waters yet. we have always had a two bedroom minimum design in place until this recent "change".
The engineer in Oregon with the most experience at this is your best friend. You will never get around the application process of "test pits". that's what the professional are there for, to provide a correct designed and installed system.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2015 19:16
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Gary O, They'll let me use a waterless toilet but you still have to put in a septic system. I've been around and around with the County onsite lady and then the DEQ lady about that.
And that's the irony here. My original plan was to use the waterless solar incinerating toilet to handle the waste and blackwater and then a special greywater treatment system that sends the greywater through a 5-stage moss treatment process to remove contaminants from the greywater. They said no.
But this Puraflo system they HAVE approved does the same thing in a more complex manner because it has to separate and treat the solids and blackwater first in septic and effluent tanks. Then it purifies the greywater in a pod filled with moss, exactly like the system I proposed does.
I want to use the treated greywater for watering the garden and landscaping, which the DEQ does allow. That's why this type of system interests me. Plus, I want as little of my land taken up by the septic system as possible.
Because mountains have sandy and rocky soil, I have to plan for the possibility that the site eval. and perk testing will require the huge and expensive sand filter septic system. DEQ allows you to put in an alternative technology instead of the sand filter, though.
So, basically, I have to plan and budget for all possibilities. And I really don't want the use and enjoyment of my land hindered by a huge, honking septic system that will affect the placement of my water, other buildings, driveways, gardening, etc. I only have 2.5 acres. Especially since the system only needs to treat about 25 gallons per day!
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2015 19:41
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Littlecooner,
I'm planning for the fair possibility that the perk tests will reveal I need a sand filter system. In Oregon, that costs about $12,000 and takes up a sizable section of land.
The soil in southern Oregon requires you to prepare. It's sandy with a lot of rock from volcanos and I'll be on a small, forested mountain. The land is gorgeous but cheap for a reason. It can cost to build. Wells are another story and I'm not even going there yet!
It will perk. I've been assured of that, and I do have a guarantee from the land developer that if it fails, I can switch equity to another parcel with allowances for costs. He hasn't had a parcel fail perk but some do require the sand filter septic. I may be lucky, I may not.
If I'm lucky, this WILL be simple. Yeah, I have seen the Infiltrator products and they are on the DEQ approval list. But I have to price-compare and get the best possible system with the least amount of land usage for the best price. I'm told that a basic, conventional system will run $5K.
Puroflo requires very little maintenance. It's basically a septic tank, pump, and container with moss and pipes. I like that I can use the cleaned greywater, and direct it to my gardens/landscaping. Again, forested high desert environment makes water reuse a good thing.
There's a septic contractor trained and licensed by the state for septic design, including Puroflo. I'm going to give him a call next week.
I wish I could hire you!
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2015 20:31
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Any neighbors around your area doing what you plan? Visiting with them could be beneficial.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2015 21:10
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Julie, Oregon is one of the most restrictive states and very little private land and what is private is dictated with a heavy hand.
See at: http://takingliberty.us/Narrations/northwest/player.html
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2015 21:14
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Silverwaterlady, No one has built on my road yet and our land abuts BLM forest. The folks I have communicated with on the mountain have said the results of perk testing have varied among the people they know. Some have been approved for conventional septic and some have been directed to do sand filter.
Those whose tests required sand filters haven't built yet. It's a big expense, especially if you bought the land to put up a small or seasonal cabin. But DEQ does allow you to install an alternative system instead of the sand filter. That's why I'm spending a lot of time researching.
The more I'm reading about Puraflo, the more I'm thinking that this is the answer, regardless of perk results. It's adjustable to my small use, easy to install, almost maintenance-free, and very cost-effective. It would cost about the same as a conventional system yet take up less land space.
The pricing I found so far states that a 4-bedroom system including 4 Puraflo pods, effluent chamber, pumps, filters and pipes costs $7,000 and includes a Puraflo representative on site to oversee installation.
The literature says that a 1-bedroom home would require 1 pod and would treat 125 gallons of sewage per day. That is far more than adequate for my needs so my cost would be much less. Adding in the cost of a septic tank and the installation (which is accomplished in a day) and it would cost about the same as conventional septic but be much more efficient, would reuse greywater, and take up less land.
Unless the DEQ has more surprises for me, sigh, this could be the way to go. And I might have found something valuable for others who want to build in the area to consider.
Btw, these peat moss-based systems are really simple solutions, apparently, for off-the-grid! By all accounts, they work well and you can do a septic system with it yourself if you're not bound by a bunch of government codes!
This particular peat moss comes from Ireland and lasts for 15 years before needing to be replaced! The other one I was looking at used moss from Northern Europe and you could buy it online! It's been approved for septic in Canada, Finland, Denmark, Ireland, and elsewhere.
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2015 21:14
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon Gary O, They'll let me use a waterless toilet but you still have to put in a septic system. I've been around and around with the County onsite lady and then the DEQ lady about that.
Not if you put a trailer on it. 
(Park Model)
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 15 Feb 2015 21:34
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LOL, Toyota, I read the mobile home regs and that's just a different set of issues for a home that isn't very well-built.  They always get you somehow, lol!
I'm ornery and a problem-solver by nature, so I'm now determined to get this done legally but without letting them control my land and my wallet!
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2015 09:02
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon I'm ornery and a problem-solver by nature, so I'm now determined to get this done legally but without letting them control my land and my wallet!
Right on Julie. It can be done. If anyone can do it, I know you can. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. 
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2015 14:38
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Thanks, Toyota! I think I'm on to something with this peat moss septic system. Hahaha, but would you believe that the contractor that the DEQ has on its preferred installer list had his contractor license yanked and is now out of business?!
In the words of Bugs Bunny, what a bunch of maroons!
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2015 20:09 - Edited by: Littlecooner
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Well, we are all here to learn and share. Looks like I am about to learn some things. First off Julie, I can not find a price on a Puraflo pod. Can you share the cost.
I have never saw one of these and have never designed one, so I am in the dark. But, about 5 years ago, I had a client that wanted to construct this $ 300,000 house on his $ 300,000 lake lot and wanted me to design and stake the house location and septic system. The only usable way to accomplish his desire was to use one of these peat moss systems. I did a great deal of research, back then (5 years ago). When conventional systems here were running $ 4000 to install, I came up with $ 18,000 to $ 20,000 to install this peat moss system.
the lot still sits empty today and has a for sale sign in the yard, the client now lives two doors away from my residence in a house he bought.
It looks like you are wanting to spend your money to drive the most expensive system on the market when a conventional field line will work just fine.
I did do some research on your Oregon specs and see that the 1000 gallon tank is a required minimum. If you get a wavier from the local health department, you can make a fortune in instructing others in how to accomplish that task.
Just don't understand why you are so consumed in breaking the rules and going with the most economical and least maintained system Out there today are millions of 1000 gallon tanks with conventional field lines in place that are functioning with no problems all around the country.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2015 22:57
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Littlecooner,
I don't think you read my posts completely. There is a decent chance that I'm NOT going to qualify for a "conventional" system and the land could perk for a sand filter system. A sand filter system is very expensive. About $15,000 on average, from what I've seen. So I don't know why you keep insisting that I can just install a "conventional" system and be done with it.
Oregon regs allow you to put in an alternative technology system instead of the sand filter. And the peat moss system will be cheaper than a sand filter and perform very well.
I'm not trying to break the rules. I'm trying to WORK WITH THE RULES. Furthermore, I don't know where you went to do research on Oregon specs but the DEQ approved products list includes septic tanks that are less than 1,000 gallons so why would they approve 500- and 750-gallon tanks if you're not allowed to use them?
I personally spoke with the Onsite Coordinator at the Oregon DEQ and she said that in choosing and designing the septic system, only products on the state list could be used.
The cost information I saw for Puraflo, which I shared above, was on the website for the city of Barnstable when they approved its use. I don't know what state that's in.
The Oregon approval literature for Puraflo says that the system must be sized for the number of bedrooms and the use. Or is it standard among septic designers and installers to put the same system for a house that they would for my 1-bedroom, 280 sq. ft. cabin? I wouldn't think so. The sizing is one Puraflo module per bedroom, which handles 150 gallons of sewage per day. My use will be no more than 30 gallons per day.
I understand that you earn your living installing septic systems and it doesn't bother you to install sand filter systems. Well, as a woman who isn't independently wealthy and who will be living in a small cabin, I DO need to find an alternative to a very expensive and large system to handle the small amount of wastewater I will generate.
I have probably a 50-50 chance of needing a conventional system to sand filter system. And I have to plan and budget for all eventualities so I'm not caught short and unaware. If the perk test reveals I can install a conventional system, great. If not, I need a reasonable option I can afford and maintain.
Oh, and have I mentioned that Puraflo is the ONLY approved alternative technology that doesn't have an energy-hogging electrical pump and alarm system running 24/7 that will eat up my solar-generated power? The electric pump is economical and there is also a non-electric siphon option. That's a big consideration.
I'm sorry to be a bit testy but, sheesh. I'm racking my brain reading everything I can and trying to FOLLOW the rules and do things according to every single code in a responsible and budget-friendly manner while keeping to my dream of living simple and off-the-grid.
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robynmart
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2015 22:58
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Julie, just a quick FYI, my parents looked into a Moss system when they had to put in a septic system (wanted something small as their land is not huge) and their contractor though liking it cautioned against it as when the moss is removed not only is there a lot of it but it must then be handled as contaminated material, and there was only one company in BC at time that would do that and it was 8 hours away.
Love what you are doing by the way, very courageous and can't wait to hear about it getting off the ground.
Hope the best, prepare for the worst.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2015 23:11
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Thanks, robynmart! Yeah, I actually saw pics of them hauling the used moss away. Three HUGE bags! Mine won't be quite that bad because I'll only need one pod. If you're doing a regular-sized house, it would be a LOT of contaminated material!
Thankfully, it only needs to be replaced every 15 years so we could figure it out by then. What's kind of handy is that there is a waste disposal site right down the highway from the mountain I will be living on. So it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Waste-haulers must come and go around there a lot.
And, yeah, I need to prepare for all sorts of scenarios NOW, before I sell my current house and all of my possessions and move the 1,700 miles to Oregon, haha! It would kinda suck to be hit with expensive surprises once I got there!
I'm going to be flying up there in a few months, though, to get the site evaluation and test pits dug.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2015 08:51
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Julie, a basic septic system, ie tank and in your case, about 130 feet of leech line (std 3 bedrooms run about 160 feet) should easily cost under $5000, in fact, if you are more of a DIY'r type, can usually get it done for about $3500. From the looks of your picture, seeing the soil, I know it will perk with ease.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2015 19:04
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Julie, sorry if I sounded a bit rough on my post. Just trying to help here. It sounds like you are reading the current rules on line just like I am, which is on the Sec. of State web site that pops up on the first Google under "Onsite sewage rules for Oregon"
Please review these, as I see Minimum requirements of the septic tank must be a 1000 gallon size. I also see that the minimum system for a single family residence MUST be sized for 300 gallon a day, which from your number would require two pods. Those smaller 500 and 750 gallon tanks would server as a "wet well" to be placed downstream from the septic tank to place the required pump within, to pump effluent into the pods. They are on the approved list also for places like a commercial restaurant that would require a grease trap prior to the septic tank.
I see there are procedures to apply for a variance and that opens the door if you want to try that route.
I can again assure you that the local person that is well experienced in making these applications can tell you a lot just on the phone. Soil maps are available and his/her experience could let you know very quick on the percentage possibility of obtain a site that would be suitable for a conventional system.
2 1/2 acres is a large amount of land and if you do put in the pod system, you will be putting in a pump, so the pods can be placed anywhere on the lot for the absorption field.
You are doing correct to check all this out before hand, Your building cost can be tied down very close but wells and onsite sewage can be the big unknown. Why not just call on the phone and have the person do the test pits without you traveling the 1700 miles? you can explain where on the lot you desire to build the cabin to this person either by phone or send him a sketch, If you have a 2 1/2 acre lot in a development, you must have a copy of the recorded plat in your records.
Don't shoot the messenger here, just trying to help you understand the written rules on minimum required by the state. I understand your 25 gal/day calculation, but you have a huge uphill battle in arriving at the point the state will let you use that number. Even if you did, it would only amount to a couple of hundred dollars for the 500 gallon tank vs 1000 gallon tank and use of one pod instead of two. I just do not see the battle cost effective because if they are like here, you are not going to win the battle.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2015 19:26
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I guess it must be time for my "War Story of the day". This is what I did this afternoon. I spent 20 years working for government, back and forth while mixing in another 20 years in the private sector to finally retire three years ago. Now due to several factors I am back working part time out of the house which is taking me away from finishing my 12x20 cabin.
This afternoon I took place in a similar undertaking to your request. Visiting the guy in government who was sitting behind the exact desk I left 13 years ago when he took my place at that job. I was there similar to your situation, furnished the written rules to my clients and they just do not like the rules, want to do something less, way less, so I am there, being paid by my client to plead their case and explain we are going to ask for a variance.
They are on for Thursday afternoon in front of the board to verbally plead their case. Guess I will sit in the back of the room and listen. With 40 years in this stuff, being on both sides for over 20 years each, I understand what will take place in the end. They can adhere to the adopted written rules and guideline, or they can not do their project, That is what you face in trying to go well below the long standing minimum guideline, I wish you luck, wish my clients luck. If I show up Thursday, they will be charged for my time to attend and I think this may be fun to be the fly on the wall in the back of the audience. You can not fight "city hall". A lot do, but very, very few ever win.
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