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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2016 03:07
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I was Googling for lithium solar batteries and found this:
http://bosch-solar-storage.com/
It seems to be available in Canada and it's been on the market for 3 years. Wowza! It has a built-in, seamless inverter and monitoring/maintenance systems. Nothing on pricing but it looks awfully pricey. And, clearly, I didn't win the Powerball. 
But, still, very, very interesting!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2016 08:39
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Thanks for the info Julie.
MtDon weighed in on what he had learned about the Tesla lithium storage bank, and said that they can be seriously degraded if exposed to high heat. This worries me a lot. I'd like to see some hard fact finding on the realities of owning one of these.
But I'm sure they will iron out the bugs, eventually, and the price will come down. Then I'll get one.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2016 09:45
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The Bosch pages state "high tec".. High tec that is German = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Maybe very nice but not for me I'm sure.
When thinking about lithium batteries in cars remember they usually have cooling systems as well as warming systems built into the battery packs. The Nissan Leaf has had serious heat issues in AZ.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2016 15:07
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Yeah, when there were all of those "hoverboards" catching fire because of their lithium batteries over Christmas, my ears perked up. The official word was that the models catching fire were the cheaper knock-offs with the cheap lithium batteries/connections, and the expensive, name-brand hoverboards were performing fine. But I still wondered.
I've got some decisions to make soon and I just don't know what to do. 
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2016 15:26
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An aside: I've found 2 places, one in Oregon and one in California, that build and sell LiPo batteries for solar/RV purposes. One of the sites stated that it's very important to use a heavier gauge of wire in the connections because of the potential for heat in various applications, and some battery builders aren't doing that. This makes sense to me.
I was looking at 300 AH and about 3.6 kilowatts for between $2,000-$2,500. If the batteries last as long and are as efficient as indicated, that would be a good investment.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2016 16:54 - Edited by: MtnDon
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1. The hoverboards may not be using cells based on LFP chemistry. They are highly likely using a Li-Co or other variant. There are many types of lithium cells. LFP are the safest and also not as energy dense as some others. But in off grid homes we don't need to worry about packing the most energy into the least amount of weight.
2. What do they build their batteries from? Cylindrical cells or prismatic cells?
3. As with anything electrical, proper wire gauge is important. Nothing new in that statement. However, that statement makes me think they might be using cylindrical cells. RE systems using LFP should, IMO, be based on prismatics to reduce the number of connections needed. Prismatics use straps to connect one large cell to another whereas cylindricals have many more series and parallel connections. Each a potential failure point.
4. Is the 3600 watts figure based on LFP use with a planned discharge /charge pattern running bewteen 20 to 90% of capacity?
If it is, that more or less compares to 4 FLA golf carts (225 amps x 12 volts x 2 = 5400 x 50% = 2700) connected in series / parallel for 12 volts or all in series for a 24 volt system. And I can buy those at my local Sam's Club / Costco for less than $400. I can get Trojan FLA for less than $650 or Trojan AGM for less than $1000.
If, as we all hope, LFP battery prices continue to fall $400 worth of GC-2 batteries can give you five years of service with a modicum of care. Time to see how much power you actually use as compared to hope to use.
One of the issues I have with LFP technology is that we have to rely on the reseller to be there for us if and/or when we need warranty. Most everything originates in CN. The RE industry has see enough companies from small local outfits to giants like Sharp and BP drop out. When they drop out warranties tend to drop too.
But then I am conservative to say the least. I still am not certain what I would do today if my FLA battery bank dropped dead. I like many things about LFP, but am still on the fence.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2016 17:28 - Edited by: Julie2Oregon
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MtnDon
The California company states that they are prismatic cells. The Oregon company has a more general, less-technical website and didn't go that far into tech detail but stated that one should call them to discuss particulars.
The California company builds batteries and has its own testing facilities. Here's the site, if anyone is interested:
http://www.batteryspace.com/12-8v-lifepo4-battery-packs-from-19.8ah-to-200ah.aspx?pag e=2
Yeah, I'm on the fence, too, as one who is about to make the initial investment in solar. I don't want to be pennywise and pound foolish, and put thousands of dollars into a system that won't be as efficient and productive as it could be. But I also don't want to spend more money than I have to on something that doesn't live up to the hype or is potentially very problematic.
It seems like AGM batteries have come down in price since I started looking at these things.
I've calculated my power need to be 800-900 watts per day. I want much more storage capacity to get me through days of clouds in the winter without having to rely on the generator to charge the batteries every day.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2016 19:30
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FWIW, those appear to be GBS cells, one of the CN giants. Same as packaged by elitepowersolutions.com. I like their terminal plates.
... cloudy days do make the LFP type look more attractive because of their indifference to being recharged fully on a more or less daily basis.....
Quoting: Julie2Oregon .... power need to be 800-900 watts per day...
Watt-hours a day. Without the time the watts portion is not truly meaningful. Watts is the measurement of power and watt-hours is the measure of a quantity of energy.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2016 20:58
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Sorry, yes, that would be watt hours. The time is included in the 800-900. 
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2016 22:07
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon included in the 800-900
Would that ceiling fan you spoke of in the other thread not burn 900 watt hours by its self . 900 is not much power , I am no expert but it seems low to me !!
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2016 23:23 - Edited by: Julie2Oregon
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Just
No, I've found a solar ceiling fan with its own panel.
The only things I'm running on electric are a small chest freezer, a Shur-Flo water pump, a small flat-panel TV, and charging my laptop charging an hour per day. Everything else is either propane or running off alkaline C or D batteries.
Because of the potential for cloudy days and snowfall preventing me from going into town, I've striven to have multi-purpose uses for things and backups. If I've got extra solar power capacity I can use, great! But I don't want to run my solar system batteries down regularly or get stuck in a long stretch of cloudy and snowy days with little or no solar power generation, no fuel for the generator and no way of getting any.
The biggest power user will be the freezer, which could use up to 400 watt hours per day but probably a bit less. (I'm planning on 400.) That's the most important, along with the little water pump. I can make it without TV and the laptop if I needed to do that. I have a 2-power source light with a battery bank that will charge my cell phone and Kindle.
I've bought oil lamps and solar-, battery-operated combo lamps. I also have my eye on a battery-operated floor lamp I found on Amazon that has gotten great reviews. It runs off D batteries. For my bathroom, I found a medicine cabinet that has lights around the mirror that also run off D batteries and have a motion sensor so the light turns on when you enter the bathroom. Cool stuff.
The ceiling fan is pricey at $300 but perfect for my intended use. It comes with a dedicated roof-mount solar panel to run directly from solar and also an AC adapter, if needed, that sips electric at 12 watt hours. The thing that makes it perfect for my use is that it's lightweight and moveable -- you can easily change its location. So, I can have it on my cathedral ceiling in the winter to circulate warm air down toward my living room and kitchen and then move it to my loft bedroom in the summer to cool down the loft.
I think with a 3.5 Kilowatt hour battery capacity, a generator, and keeping a good supply of fuel on hand, I'll be fine running my electrics through snowstorms and cloudy periods until the sun shines again. But this is going to be a learning curve for me.
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creeky
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# Posted: 21 Jan 2016 14:50
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Julie2, you were right on the description of power use actually. Your time is per day. Many people get this wrong. see wikipedia article for reference on using watts, watt hours etc in a finicky manner if you wish, smile. but a watt is a watt is a watt. Time is the variable.
Given your costs on small c and d cell batteries, might I suggest just wiring for 120v and buying appropriate fixtures. The cost of battery operated 800 lumens of light is usually much higher than the comparable big box equivalent. Most importantly the battery powered lights rarely offer that light level. And less than 800 lumens in a washroom. Well. Pretty dark and gloomy. 800 lumens is one incandescent 60 watt light bulb. Is that enough light for your washroom use / showering / hair styling etc?
I checked the lumen output for my washroom fixtures about a million times -- and opted for standard wiring attached to my solar system. I then bought two standard bathroom overhead track lights for 25 bucks on kijiji (canada's craigslist). replaced the halogen with led bulbs and I'm good for 25 years. At 7 wh per bulb. 2 or 4 depending. And a washroom use of an hour a day I'm pretty good at a max of 28 watts used per day.
I have a pretty big washroom, so 2500 lumens is required to light it sufficiently for my female guests etc.
A 3.5 kw/h battery in lithium is your best bet. Far less maintenance. Far better for off grid life.
There is this company for lithiumstorage also.
And, of course, balqon has a 5kw battery pack that would be perfect for you. It gives you some growth room. And you can easily parallel in another similar pack at a later date. It's $3k, but for you its also plug and play. You would hook up your inverter and solar controller and be done with it. No worries.
I'm curious. Why a freezer and no fridge?
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 21 Jan 2016 21:32
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creeky
First, the freezer question. It suits my lifestyle best, even now. My fridge doesn't contain much but my freezer is full. I'm not a big eater and I'm single but I'm a thrifty shopper and I love to cook. So what I do is buy the big packs of poultry and meat, cut them down into individual portions, wrap them and freeze them so I can take out a portion to thaw for supper. And I cook big pots of soups, stews, and spaghetti sauce, and freeze small portions to thaw for a meal when I want it.
Being single, produce goes bad quickly, too, if I don't freeze it. In the winter, I usually just buy bags of frozen veggies. I don't use canned goods as much in my recipes. A produce manager told me you can freeze summer corn right in the husk and it stays sweet and tender in the winter. It works!
So, I only use my fridge for butter, milk, cheese, and yogurt. A bit of leftovers on occasion. I'm going to buy one of those "party coolers" that people have on their patios for beverages. The good ones have a decent cooler inside surrounded by metal. And I'll keep those plastic freezer blocks frozen in my freezer and ready to change out so my cooler stays very cold. Having those blocks in the freezer should help keep the temperature extra cold and my freezer from cycling as much, too.
Yeah, I am going to have the cabin wired for 120 volts. It will be simple enough for my solar guy to do and I want it wired in case more people build on my road and Pacific Light puts in transformers and poles at some point. Power isn't far now but, dang, is it expensive to bring in on my own from right down the road! It would be cool to be grid-tied and do net-metering. But I digress ...
I have to check the bathroom building codes -- I might need a ventilation fan in there. If so, I found one that's energy efficient and has a built-in LED light. You can wire it so you can run the fan and light separately or simultaneously. That's what I'd want. I've reserved some watts for that and small LED "can" lights over the living room and loft for safety code with the steps.
I don't like a lot of bright lighting. Just don't, not even in my on-grid house currently. I never use the overhead lights. I just turn on a little lamp to light where I'm at, what I'm doing. I like ambiance, lol.
Do you think Balqon will be around for a while? I saw posted here previously that their financials are worrisome.
Winter is the only time that concerns me, and the first winter will be a learning experience! Southern Oregon gets a lot of sunshine in late Spring, Summer, and most of Autumn so my solar panels will be producing like mad and I'll have watts to spare in the batteries. But I want to remain careful for a while.
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Just
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# Posted: 21 Jan 2016 22:09
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Julie2Oregon
How many watts of panel are you thinking of installing ? I think you will be pleasantly surprised by your winter production the snow and cold help a lot . I went back and swept the snow off this morning and the system came to life at 7.40 am this morning.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 22 Jan 2016 01:29
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Just
That's great! I've read that when the sun peeks out, the reflection off the snow increases solar production. So, I do hope for happy surprises in the winter!
I was told by someone who had a pretty large PV system near where my land is to expect and plan for a lot of densely cloudy days in the winter. She recommended being backed up for periods of at least four days in a row of no or very little solar production. I don't know if she was overly cautious or not but I've kept that in mind.
I'm thinking that 1,100 watts of monocrystalline panels will do. Five panels, about 220 watts each. Something like that. I'll see what the solar contractor recommends. That's just my calculation, if I want 300 AH, 12 volts of battery space replenished in about 5 hours of prime sunlight. Then again, my math skills suck.
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