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01Marlin
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# Posted: 30 Dec 2010 21:05
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Quoting: adamclay we would bring up our IPOD with music and kindle with lots of books. We don't really use the computer that much. My wife especially only uses it for e-mail occasionally but lately we find it never gets turned on. Our TV also rarely gets turned on. We find ourselves often just sitting and listening to music
I congratulate you on not watching lots of TV; most of it just rots your mind, anyways. However, do you really also need an IPOD with music and a kindle? Or even a computer, for that matter? We didn't have all this junk 20 years ago, and folks lived for generations without electricity or plumbing and survived just fine. I bought a cylinder phonograph at an auction years ago and it plays 2 minute cylinders, requires no electricity, and can provide hours of entertainment. I only have a computer because it provides some entertainment as I am stuck on my 1/2 acre lot, so that I can dream of my retirement on a cabin in the woods (land I own); a retirement that is ever more distant due to poor fiscal policies during my lifetime. Any good land (like that I own) is generally far distant from areas that provide gainful employment--and so my computer is a distraction from the rumbling of cars and trucks that race by my window by people who feel a need to engage in needless driving in their oversized, overpriced, gas-guzzling SUV's. Maybe high gas will discourage this wastelessness again!
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islandguy
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# Posted: 30 Dec 2010 22:16
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BTW, There are plans avalable to make your own biodisel fuel from restaurant waste cooking oil. Although some engines can be made to run on b-100, (100% biodiesel) most will run best on blending biodisel with regular diesel.
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Kramer
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# Posted: 31 Dec 2010 00:48
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Quoting: PlicketyCat If you do decide to get a multi-fuel... make sure that it can be tweaked to also run ethanol and bio-gas in addition to gasoline and NG-LPG. That way you know that you'll have the option to run it on home brew if petroleum prices go (more) sky-high.
Having converted/owned a couple propane vehicles, I can say straight up that any engine setup to run multifuel propane/gas is an inefficient compromise at best.
For you to see maximum efficiency out of propane, you need a much higher dynamic compression ratio. Or you can run a lot more ignition advance. Small engines generally do not have timing that is easily varied, which leaves playing with the air side of things. Generally those modifications are fairly permanent.
If I wanted a genset to run propane, I'd set it up for it strictly.
My only grief with propane engines, is they tend not to take well to cold starting. Depending where you live, and your exact setup, this can be pretty much a non-issue.
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2011 09:29
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Yes, there is often a trade-off between efficiency and flexibility. That's why it pays to have back-ups for your back-ups and Plans C-Z just in case. We actually tend to have backup equipment that runs on a different fuel type, just in case a certain fuel isn't available, rather than going with multi-fuel... but if fuel randomness is something that seems likely in your area, it might be worth the lower efficiency to have that sort of flexibility.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 9 Feb 2011 16:29
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I am totally new to all of this..I will be needing to run a small refrigerator, t.v., laptop, and in the summer a 110 AC. I need to know what size generator, I will need. Also would 4 deep cycle batteries be sufficient? My cabin is not finished yet and there is no wiring in it at this time. I would appreciate any help!! C.J.
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 9 Feb 2011 17:26
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The refrigerator and air conditioner unit are going to be your big power consumers... unfortunately, these will both be running at their heaviest at the same time (summer).
Shop around for the most efficient models of both units that will work for your cabin needs, and then take your KWH needed from their specs... that will determine how big your generator should be and how many (and what size) batteries and inverter you'll need. But if you're running any AC current, you will need an inverter/charger between your batteries (which are DC), your generator (which could be AC or DC), and your house wiring (which is AC).
If you had a really efficient fridge-freezer (like the Vestfrost), you're looking at 1.5 KWH a day... you could do this with a 2000 Watt generator and six 12v deep cycle SLA batteries (should make it overnight at least).
There aren't that many off-grid air conditioners (some truck & RV models), but the Frigidaire FRA054XT7 is one of the most efficient AC current window units. It'll cool (at least a few degrees) and dehumidify about 750 sq ft for around 500WH/day (running during the day only).
So, with the fridge and AC unit, you'd be maxing out your 2000 W generator, and would need to upgrade to at least a 3000 W. If you ran the window unit overnight, you're probably looking at needing twelve 12v deep cycle SLA batteries.
These are just estimates, YMMV.
Now, if you want to get ultra-energy-efficient, you can check out DC fridge-freezers (like SunDanzer, SunFrost, or Dometic RV), get a much smaller fridge, look into the Securus DC air conditioner, or design the house to be cooled naturally or maybe just with some small fans. Just keep in mind that ultra-efficient appliances are more expensive, and they may require you to switch to 24v or 48v wiring rather than straight 12v (which may mean more or more more expensive components).
Here's a really good article on system and equipment sizing for refrigeration.
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Rob_O
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# Posted: 9 Feb 2011 18:59
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Quoting: PlicketyCat If you had a really efficient fridge-freezer (like the Vestfrost), you're looking at 1.5 KWH a day... you could do this with a 2000 Watt generator and six 12v deep cycle SLA batteries (should make it overnight at least). There aren't that many off-grid air conditioners (some truck & RV models), but the Frigidaire FRA054XT7 is one of the most efficient AC current window units. It'll cool (at least a few degrees) and dehumidify about 750 sq ft for around 500WH/day (running during the day only). So, with the fridge and AC unit, you'd be maxing out your 2000 W generator, and would need to upgrade to at least a 3000 W. If you ran the window unit overnight, you're probably looking at needing twelve 12v deep cycle SLA batteries.
You are confusing watts and watt/hours. Watts is power being used right now while watt/hours are watts used over a period of time
The fridge uses 2.5A (300W) with both(?) compressors running and the AC unit uses 4.5A (540W) running. An EU1000 would keep both of them running but will not be able to make enough power to get either of them started (refrigeration compressors draw a heavy load at startup). An EU2000 would definitely start either and *maybe* start the AC after the fridge is running
Making some assumptions about inverter efficiency, line losses and max of 25% DOD you can run that AC unit about 2 hours on 4 standard deep-cycle batteries
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 9 Feb 2011 19:39
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Yes, I was simplifying W/WH/Ah because it's confusing to a lot of people. You can get by with less batteries if they are higher amp-hours, regardless of whether they are 2v, 6 v or 12v and regardless of whether they are configured straight 12v, 24v or 48v. And, you could probably get away with that fridge on a 1000w generator, but the draw when the compressor fires will max it out (as you noted), same thing with the compressor on the AC unit, especially if it fires at the same time (which you also noted).
So, my recommendation that a fridge and AC would require a 3000w generator is still accurate, even if the techy terms are muddled, because if your fridge and AC compressors both cycle at the same time, you'll drive that 2000w generator to it's knees :)
Rule of thumb is that 100w = 1 amp draw. Most kitchen appliances (like a blender) draw 20 amps at start up. A few of the smaller power tools (like homeowner drills) also 20 amps. So a 2000w generator should work, but a 3000w generator would give you more leeway and you'd have some power leftover for smaller stuff like TV's and lights. But a big appliance (like a fridge or range top) or power tool (like a table saw or welder) can draw 50 amps at start up... so you'd need 5000w just to be safe and not blow any circuitry... but your lights might still dim when they power up.
Hubby is the Electrical Engineer... he speaks all the proper technical terms and perfect formulas. I just munge the data to figure out how it works conceptually so I can make real world estimates ;)
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 9 Feb 2011 19:48
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Anonymous, may I ask why are you designing this around a generator for the power source? In the long run that is the most expensive way to make power. Is solar not workable?
Refrigeration and air conditioning are big power users compared to lights and LCD or LED TV's. Off grid A/C is best done with split-mini units; much higher efficiency than any other form of A/C.
What are you planning to use for cooking and hot water? If propane there are good propane refrigerators available; Servel is very good.
There is a power sizing tool (spreadsheet) HERE that can help sort out the power needs as well as how much battery capacity.
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El Che
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2011 21:57
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I don't want to sound pessimistic, but I wouldn't jump into this idea with both feet, given your level of knowledge about living in the country, let alone without power.
You will have to think very carefully first. Do you have the mechanical and carpentry skills to be independent? Are you good with a chainsaw for example? If not, you will be at the mercy of others before you know it. By the way, wood heating can lose its romance quickly when it becomes a full time job. I would try something less ambitious first before you move off grid and far away from civilization, for a million things will go wrong along the way and you will need the fortitude and know how to pull it off.
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Just
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2011 22:24
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anyone have a plan or a pic or some experience with a root cellar ..you no some were it's cool in summer for some important things , and warm in the winter so a can of beans won't freeze?????
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hattie
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2011 22:52
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We don't have a root cellar but do have a cold cellar under our house. It stays nice and cold but nothing freezes.
Our only problem was dampness which we solved by using something called Moisture Magnet. It doesn't use electricty and you just dump out the tray of water as it fills up. When the chemical runs out, you replace it.
Mice can also be a problem so make sure you have a baited trap in the room at all times (and don't forget to check it daily *S*).
All of your food should be in mouse proof containers if possible. We keep dog food, flour and sugar in big sealed plastic tubs. Obviously that won't work for potatoes or apples or such that need to breathe. We find open plastic tubs work great for those, but you have to check your open food regularly and remove anything that begins to rot before it ruins the rest of the food.
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Just
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2011 15:13
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problem is we don't have a cellar , but thats what i'm looking to make . lets call it a natural fridge .no power needed !! moisture magnet where do you get it or dose it have a chemical name..Quoting: hattie Moisture Magnet
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hattie
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2011 15:50 - Edited by: hattie
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Quoting: Just moisture magnet where do you get it or dose it have a chemical name..
We get it at Home Hardware. The chemical is calcium chloride and it is in a cloth bag that you hang horizontally over a plastic container. It works quite well but only in small places. Our cold room is only 40 sq. ft. One bag lasts us about 3 months.
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Just
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2011 16:01
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thanks hattie !! now all i need is some ideas for a well or struture to put it in ..i,m sure soom one out there has a idea if not it would be the first time..thanx
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Greyowl
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2011 16:30
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Wow. I can see what you mean when you say you weren't expecting so many responses to your plans. I have spent many winters this far north without power but won't bore you with all the details. I just want to tell you as you consider your plans with everyone warning you of possible dangers ........... the worst thing isn't that you might die because you didn't consider some big pitfall, but that you didn't give it a go and chase your dreams. Don't let fear stop you from living !!!!
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jorta
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2011 08:07
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It is so easy. i live in the north of sweden off the grid. like many people, incl older people. Technology these day´s is great. i bought a new dell laptop with superefficient i3 processor in it that takes about 20watt p/h. The new akai led tv with build in dvd takes less than 35 watt p/h. The lights are all led from 0.5 up till 5 watt and outsite a bigger one high on a pole from 11 watt. Pour warm water in your washingmachine and wash on a cold program and have a decent cast iron woodstove in the center of your cabin with good isolated pipes. shower on propane and pump on 12v. I have a 230ah battery-2 90wp solarpanels and a small honda ex650 generator. It is more than enough, i use 30 amp per day max and live a normal decent live here in the woods. hope that helps.
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Just
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2011 09:24
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Quoting: jorta live a normal decent live here in the woods
what do you do for food storage??
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Greyowl
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2011 09:45
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Howdy. We use a propane fridge and have done so now for 3 years for fresh food . The fridge uses more propane than a propane stove does as it is burning a small flame continuously but it works well.
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jorta
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2011 10:55
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Haha, i mean life. Sorry, english is not my native language.
We are talking about living in the north isn't it? You don't need a fridge.
We have a half underground natural walk in room 10 meter from the house where the temp is about 2 to 4 degrees above freezing temp. all year. This cellar has a roof more than one meter thick earth with grass on it. I can stand in it. For centuries people use these type of 'fridge'. We also have a cold closet in the house. this is a closet whit thick isolated walls on the insite and open air connection to the outsite, here we store almost everything we use in the next two weeks and our drinks. temp is mostly 3 to 9 degrees above freezing for 10 months per year...you can play with is to allow more or less outsite air
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hattie
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2011 12:49
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jorta: Your place sounds great. I would love to live off grid, but it just isn't practical for us here. Do you have any pictures of your place and the room you store your food in outside? I'd also love to see the cold closet you have in your house. This really fascinates me.
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Just
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2011 22:08
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we live i southern canada but what i want to build is a under ground room to keep things from freezing in winter and cool in summer !! I haven't , had any luck finding any one with your experance it would be great if you had a picture or two or if you could tell me a bit more about it !!we live on the 43* parallel soil tempature is 46* at 5 ft. year round..
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cosmictotem
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2011 11:52
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Do you have wind where you'll be?
This guy uses a wind generator to as supplemental power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yaedmq9DV-Y&feature=player_embedded
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Just
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2011 15:36
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in a bush trees all round i'ed need a 50 ft tower
no i would like somthing more passive!
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smitty
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2011 20:12
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Quoting: adamclay The 1000 gallon propane tank I looked at didn't weight that much. I think the empty weight was 1600lbs, and then 800 gallons of propane (which is what it holds), weighs 3384lbs, so that is about 5000 pounds. I haven't figured out how I plan to get it there yet... since I figure the 1000 gallon tank will last us easily for 2-3 years, re-filling isn't a huge issue. The two ideas I had were 1) Put it on a high clearance trailer, with off-road tires, that can clear the big ruts in the road or branches 2) Go with a 500 gallon tank (only 2500lbs) and permanelty bolt it to my truck, leaving it on there at all times. Then I could just park my truck and hook the hoses up to it. The trailer is the best idea I think because it would allow us to carry more propane. My truck can easily haul 10,000lbs it is a diesel. Also, this would allow me to shop around for the best diesel price, I could go into prince george and buy big time bulk directly from the loading station, and tow it to the cabin. The trailer would need to be custom made with offroad tires and special axles I assume. Here is a good picture of a 1000 gallon tank on a trailer, it actually looks like it has a lot of offroad clearance too. http://usedpropanetankstrucksandtransports.com/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images /IMG_3222%20%5B1024x768%5D.JPG The other advice you have given is all very good as well. We plan to stock up a years worth of preservable food. Those are very tragic stories about the people you knew. Of course we can never plan for emergencies. Being in BC you know how bad prince george weather can get it, it gets awfully cold there.
Don't know if it has been said or not but..
You might need hazmat and tanker endorsement and a CDL to haul propane tanks that large.
I used to drive a propane truck. That's what I had to have for the job. Might check how much you can haul without it. Just a thought.
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RnR
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# Posted: 30 Mar 2011 11:57
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Just: I think you're talking about a root-celler, or in French it's called a "cellier". I have seen lots of these in rural Quebec, they resemble a mound of earth about the size fo a walk-in closet with a door in front, just like Jorta described. I found the following link which may be helpful: http://rootcellarsrock.ca/2010/11/root-cellars-in-the-news/
Jorta: thanks for posting! I really enjoyed reading about your experience.
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bugs
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# Posted: 30 Mar 2011 12:35 - Edited by: bugs
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To follow on RnR's note and Jorta's as well:
My great/grandparents had a root cellar on the farm and they used to cut pond ice into blocks and store it in an underground chamber with lots of straw for insulation. Then they used the ice to keep meat cold/frozen and also used the ice through the summer as long as they could in the "icebox" to keep milk and other perishables cold. (We still have the ice tongs they used... vicious looking things.) They also put cream cans (5 gallons) down the well to keep the milk cold.
Of course there was a lot of canning done to reduce the need for refrigeration. Meats were smoked too. And "killing" of steers and pigs were done in the fall when things were freezing and the meat was easier to keep. Chickens and turkeys were killed as needed.
They were off grid to be sure but this is not to say they were without electricity once things got going ie 20's through 40's. Even when the electricity did arrive service intermittent at best. I think every farm had a small windmill generator built of scrap parts that were used to charge batteries which were in turn used to listen to the radio (soaps of the day, news, Hockey Night in Canada with Foster Hewitt) and power a light bulb or two.
Jeez it seems many of us are trying to head back to this era now.
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Just
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# Posted: 30 Mar 2011 13:21
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RnR
thanks RnR thats the best info i've seen ...
bugs,, I think I have my summer project!! lets say i have the bug ''don't tell Kate she will have a bird [[ i'm not eating any thing out of that dirty place]]!!
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 16 Apr 2011 22:44
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Root cellars are great! They replace the fridge all summer and keep stuff from freezing all winter so it all doesn't need to be inside. Here in Interior Alaska, we can get by without a fridge with either a cooler and ice blocks on the north side of the house or storing stuff in a hole (no root cellar yet). We have a small DC freezer to freeze the blue-ice blocks for the cooler in the summer for stuff that is really perishable, but a lot of "keep refrigerated" items really only need cool (50-ish) not cold (35-ish)... you just have to experiment. I can leave a dozen eggs on my north porch all summer and they're still fine since it's only about 50 back there, but the sour cream gets a little funky in 2-3 days if I don't put it in the cooler.
Of course, we use the cooler in the winter to keep stuff unfrozen! We certainly don't need any help keeping things cool or frozen from Nov through March... we just unplug the freezer and it becomes an inert storage locker for our frozen food. We also stock up on meat after the freeze starts, and just keep it in the shed out back in pest-proof containers.
Down south, that wouldn't work and even a root cellar might not stay cold enough to entirely replace a fridge... but they don't have to spend as much on heating and their season for fresh food from the garden is much longer, so it breaks even ;)
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Devon7
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# Posted: 17 Apr 2011 22:26
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Check out freezer fridge conversion which lets you convert a chest freezer to a refrigerator which works on a solar system OR off a battery system charged by a generator. It could be much less expensive to operate the fridge by using a generator and collecting excess power to your batteries and supplementing it by charging batteries as needed than using and BUYING A PROPANE FRIDGE. Search the web and clue into beer conversion kits for chest freezers. Should get you started
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