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bugs
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2011 10:18 - Edited by: bugs
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I was wondering, as the title says, how green are the various types of off grid power and green accessories?
There has to be an environmental cost for the production of solar panel cells and wind turbine components. Also the cost of the batteries and their components. All have a life expectancy that seems to vary between 10 to 25 years then they have to be replaced. Is this replacement cost and the disposal costs factored in the "green equation"?
The Cdn gov't in its vast wisdom has requested that ordinary incandescent bulbs be off the market by 2012 or so and replaced by energy efficient compact florescent bulbs or LED alternatives. They seem to be pushing the CF alternative yet they have not figured out how to dispose of CF bulbs. According to some information when a CF bulb "dies" or breaks it should be considered hazardous and rubber gloves are to be used to pick up the pieces and wipe up any mercury that leaks. Everything is to be put into a jar/container and disposed of in an appropriate way. This "appropriate way" is still to be determined as they should not be going to the landfills due to the amount of mercury in them. On top of that there is good evidence that CF's emit radiation which can cause skin irritation to susceptible people. And of course they do not like dimmers, freezing temps and often don't fit into incandescent lighting fixtures. So much for them being a green alternative!!
So maybe the green alternatives are not as green as all the hype surrounding them suggests.
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hattie
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2011 12:54
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I agree with you bugs. We live in an area that doesn't have any special way to dispose of "hazardous" waste, so if one of our CF bulbs die we have no choice but to toss it into the dump with our other garbage.
Also, have you ever seen one of these bulbs die? GEESH....It'll really scare you. One of ours died last year and it started to crackle and then it really smelled bad (burning electrical smell), then it flickered, got hot and burned out. All of our lights are CF's because I felt we were doing the right thing, but sometimes I really wonder.
Hubby commented that the old style bulbs actually give off a bit of heat. In the winter, that little bit of heat can be helpful. Hubby said that if you REALLY wanted to be green, you should probably use CF's in the summer months and old style bulbs in the winter. But who can be bothered - plus, as you said, the old bulbs soon won't be available in Canada.
The old bulbs have their place because they produce enough heat to keep a well house from freezing and we actually used one when our hot tub broke down. We were waiting for replacement parts but had to keep the hot tub from freezing underneath. Hubby put a trouble light under there and it worked GREAT! Can't do that with a CF.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2011 16:45
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With everything, even something seemingly as easy as wind generated power, there are risks. I'm sure your OP wasn't quite refering to this, but I thought I'd share some pix with you recently received from a friend of mine...
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hattie
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2011 18:30
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bobrok - How did this happen?
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bugs
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2011 19:01
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Hattie: We too bought lots of CF's but after seeing some of the facts methinks we are going to replace as many as we can with LED's. They are just more functional. They even give off some heat!!!
bobrok: Now that is the way to dispose of a turbine!!!!!! Bet the smoke did not smell like a wood burning stove and was pretty toxic too. I have read that the pressure created by the vanes can kill bats. I have a soft spot for the much maligned bat especially the little brown bats we have in our area. I find them fascinating.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2011 00:29
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Quoting: bugs how green are the various types of off grid power
Maybe I shouldn't say this, I'll appear irresponsible. I've never chose off grid because it was green. I've chose off grid mainly because it:
(1.) gave me electricity at a cost that was lower than connecting to the grid (cost to bring the grid to out cabin would have been $55K
Or (2.) gave me electricity when a grid connection was impossible (RV. I consider the system in the RV as the original off grid system. A generator charged batteries to begin with, PV panels added about 15 years ago. Our 1983 RV (purchased in '86 and still ours) has only seen three stays in an RV park. We have always been so-called self contained dry campers.)
Even, today in this time of greeness, I view the PV modules on the roof of our suburban home more as a convenience in time of power outage, as something that saves us some money on month to month expenses and for the independence factor.
Call me bad.
Incandescent lamps in the USA will not become illegal to own or use come 2012. Rather they will be illegal to manufacture in this country or to import them. So I have a stock of them for the applications where I believe they are best suited, like the garage door opener lights that are never on for more than 5 minutes at a time. Buy them now, use them later. CFL's do have a small amount of mercury but in many places there are recycling drop offs available. In any event I believe that CFL's are only an interim "fix". Eventually LED's or some other technology will replace them.
We've used CFL's for over 15 years now. None have ever had a broken glass tube. I can recall one making a loud pop and a bright flash when it stopped working.
There are costs to producing PV modules; from chemicals used, power used to manufacture cells and the aluminum frames, water used in the manufacturing process, and so on. But there are increasing costs with oil, gas and coal fueled power plants. Nobody is ever going to authorize a new hydro electric dam again. Unless you're China or Russia. Few people seem to be pro nuclear power which I think is a mistake. So what are we to do? Too many people like their power consuming devices and that demand is facing huge increases with the developing consumer markets in China and India.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2011 11:34
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MtnDon, I think you're on target with your sentiment. My summation of the whole green energy thing (and you can throw in recycling as well) is dollar value driven. Perhaps this is due to the fact that I have owned my own sales business for going on 30 years now, but just like it has never been an easy sell to buy American made vs. import it will never be an easy sell to pay thousands in up front costs for something you can still readily obtain by conventional means.
I never knew much about solar power until we
acquired our camp. Would I have rushed out to install a system? Likely not since we have a redundant gas lighting system, but it was there and we do appreciate the free power. Same with recycling. Would I pack up and drive my recyclables to a sorting center...probably not...but the county I live in has had tax supported curbside recycling for 10 years and everyone recycles because it's easy and available.
Would I run out and buy an electric car? Yes, but only if the manufacturer could offer a replacement battery system that wouldn't require a small loan to buy.
I've had so many customers want to buy American but unable to justify the costs vs. imported. Not until reliable, efficient and reasonably priced alternatives are available will I be truly motivated to invest.
(I'm trying to organze and edit my thoughts as I am typing this but I am on my smartphone and editing is a pain. I hope I've conveyed my thoughts correctly.)
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bobrok
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2011 11:42
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Hattie: the fires are due to the fact that the oil in the turbines overheated. According to my friend the turbine manufacturers have not yet perfected a foolproof method of cooling the oil nor is any conventional oil capable of withstanding the heat and pressure of use in a wind turbine transmission.
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dabones
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2011 15:16
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I have had 1 CFL break, but thats cuz it rolled off the table, it was already "burnt out" and I was in the middle of replacing it when it rolled away..
Can Tire, Staples and Home Depot stores in Ontario have CFL recycling boxes right inside their doors.. Staples also takes all electronic wastes for free as well.. (part of Stewardship Ontario Program)
I also think that LED is the way of the future, very little energy use, and long life, and safe..
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bugs
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2011 18:16 - Edited by: bugs
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MtnDon; I agree with much that you say. I can think of at least 5 hydro dam mega projects in Canada that are in various stages of being rubber stamped for development in the next 5 to 10 years. Soon there will not be an unregulated large river in Canada just like the US.
I agree too that nuclear may be of age now to examine it seriously as a genuine "green" alternative in comparison to hydro, coal or dirty tar sand oil. Heck, SK has one of the largest deposits of uranium in the world yet not a single reactor. Being involved in some of the environmental assessments for the uranium mines sure helped pay some of my bills tho.
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bugs
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2011 18:24
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Bobrok
Try being a good CDN citizen and buy Canadian made. Everything is/was made in the US and now, as in the US, everything is made off shore ie China, India..... Not very green and a huge carbon foot print.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 7 Feb 2011 19:24
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Quoting: bugs Try being a good CDN citizen
Bugs, I live in upstate New York which puts me in the US, but, to paraphrase (almost) Sarah Palin: "I can see Canada from here!"
8-)
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hattie
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# Posted: 8 Feb 2011 14:30
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I wonder how much energy night lights use? Hubby is crazy about night lights and we have about 12 of them (not sure if he has some in the garage as well or not).
Most of ours are LED but they are the emergency LED's so when the power goes out, a spotlight comes on automatically. It looks lika a prison break around here when the power goes out - all of a sudden we get all these spotlights coming on in strategic places around our house.
We also have one mutant green night light. I'm not sure what exactly it does other than glow green. And I think we have 2 regular night lights with those little bulbs.
Anyway, if anyone knows how "green" these are I'd like to know. I always look at them and think what a waste of power, but Hubby loves 'em so I just let it go. *grin*
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bobrok
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2011 07:53
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For our off-grid camp I bought 2 solar powered motion sensor lights. They work surprisingly well. They are not LEDs but halogen bulbs and a 6v battery that on a full charge will run the lamp for almost an hour, I believe. Great for late night runs to the outhouse and shed. They are a bit pricey ($80-90 at Lowes) but worth it in my estimation.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2011 10:39
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Quoting: hattie I wonder how much energy night lights use?
My LED night lights are rated at 0.3 watt each. Those flat square ones that glow are very low as well, but the ones we used to have got too dim after a dozen+ years and I tossed them. The little light bulbs use 7.5 watts as a rule. I've seen LED replacement, screw in lamps for those. If the ones you have double as emergency lights then their power rating could be a touch more as it is keeping the battery charged, but it would still be pretty much negligible.
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hattie
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2011 15:56
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Thanks MtnDon. Hubby will be happy to hear that because now I will get off his case about wasting energy. *grin*
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bugs
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2011 17:13
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More musings:
If a person/cabin was already on the grid would it not be more environmentally friendly to stay on the grid than to go off grid and have the environmental costs of manufacturing/transporting the solar panels/wind turbines and storage batteries and their replacements every 10 to 15 years?
Staying on the grid and using energy efficient appliances, lighting etc to reduce power usage could be the greener option.
Hmmm
It might even be more cost effective.
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