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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jun 2019 11:46 - Edited by: zorro
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So this is the quote I received from a local Solar guy that a lot of people seem to deal with in the area and rate fairly high
This should be a “complete systemâ€
I asked for a fairly robust/high powered system, so that is what he has tried to provide
However, the Charge Controller and his recommendation for a larger Inverter seem to be bit over the top to me (though I am no expert!)
I was looking at a couple of Charge controllers and Inverters and had thought of these 2, which are significantly less than the 2 he is suggesting, especially the $1239 charge controller – do I need that??
Giandel 2000W Pure Sine Wave Power Inverter DC 24V to AC120V = $318
https://amzn.to/2ZyR4F9
PEVER 60amp MPPT Charge Controller 48V/36V/24V/12V Negative Ground Max 150V 4500W Input fit AGM/Gel/Flooded/User Backlight LCD Display Large-Amp(60A-MPPT) - $279
https://amzn.to/2WOOBcD
4 Hansol 340W Solar Module 259 $ 1,036.00
1 Set MC4 Array cable 39 39.00
1 Watertight Connector 3.00
1 3-Position Array Combiner Box 115.00
1 15A Array Circuit Breaker 15 15.00
1 Charge Controller Kit Classic 200 Charge Controller 1,239.00
1 Samlex 600W 24VDC Sine Wave Inverter 299.00
1 40A Circuit Breaker for Inverter in Pre-Wired CC 25.00
8 Trojan T105 Batteries 169 1,352.00
6 2 Ga. 12†Battery Cables 9 54.00
2 2/0 Ga. 12†battery Cables 12 24.00
16 Battery Anticorrosion Rings .40 6.40
Subtotal: $ 4,207.40
Unirac roof mounting rails and flashing would add $300. The rails could also be used on a ground mount frame.
A disconnect for the inverter is included. I assume you will power all loads at 120VAC using the inverter.
For this size system you might also want a larger inverter. A 1000W would be $449 or a 1500W would be $569.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jun 2019 12:53
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The Giandel is High Frequency Pure Sine. It is Automobile class stuff, meaning not meant to be on long hours or with a long service duty cycle. Not one I would use if your going to need it on for hours at a time. You should be looking for a Low Frequency RV/Marine level type of inverter.
EPSolar is ok for what it is. They have improved a lot over the years and offer a good "Value System" and components. These do NOT compare to Controllers like Midnite, Outback, Victron etc... these are a different "class" altogether.
BTW: I have a Classic 200 and the support (updates etc) is great and never had an iota of issues. Really dependable. I have to say that the Charge Controller is the Heart of the system and the key of your investment, so do consider that when making a decision. I've also just upgraded to a Samlex EVO 4024 Inverter with extra goodies and this is one well made inverter.
Have a look here on Amazon Samlex EVO series
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=samlex+evo&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
The rest looks good. The Unirac's are good and not hard to setup, if you decide on ground mount with PT lumber (I did) then get an old rubber tire tube (car/truck) and cut 2-1/2" square pieces to put between the racks "feet" and the lumber, the bolts should be stainless if they use the unirac ones. The new brown PT is supposedly OK but leave nothing to chance. 2 minutes effort = lots more piece of mind.
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jun 2019 13:21
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Steve_S
Thanks for the input Steve – much appreciated
My key question then, is would this work;
PEVER 60amp MPPT Charge Controller 48V/36V/24V/12V
https://amzn.to/2WOOBcD
Instead of the $1239 controller?
I know it will never be as good, but will it be suitable/sufficient?
And I assume the recommended Samlex 600W 24VDC Sine Wave Inverter would be fine?
Thanks
Paul
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jun 2019 14:50
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I think that controller will do what you need. These are stackable too it seems now, so you can addon more if needed later. (options like that are good). Future RS485 Modbus implementation is there too, another good aspect, as that can allow monitoring & management software. The reviews are mixed but not surprising. I have no personal experience with these.
Max input 150-VDC / 1500 Watts
with your 4 panels @ max 1360W (will never see that realistically) you should be well in the zone.
600 watt inverter I dunno, simply because 600W doesn't take long to use up, even with led lights etc... you have to account for surge items (fridge, pump etc) and even motors like fans can be troublesome. Given the batteries and such you have going in, 1000-1500 watts maybe wouldn't be unreasonable. Just have to look at the power used by the inverter itself too. All depends on what you are intending to run (at max) in other words, with everything on !
I learned that once you know, it will take X watts to run everything, select the next size up to make it really work. BUT realize that shit changes and the next size up after that, will keep you going a long time. Upgrading equipment later (ie replacing inverter etc ) can be expensive, where having enough room to add more panels on your controller (without controller upgrade) is far cheaper and easier to do later if needed.
Hope it helps, I know, some stuff to think on first but better to consider options than regretting them later. That get's costly, I know.
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jun 2019 15:26
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Thanks again Steve
Honestly, the above quote is likely above what I may need, but like you say, trying to build for the future rather than right now
I will also have a 7500W (running) generator to run some of the heavier stuff/give the batteries a boost when required
The plan is;
• Well – generator
• Fridge – Propane
• Stove – Propane
• Heat – wood burning stove
Everything else will be solar/batteries with generator back up
• Lights (all LED’s) - solar
• Cell charging - solar
• Laptop charging – solar
• Overhead fam - solar
On top of that, my wife will use a hair drier (this is NOT an option!!!!  ), but the generator will go on for that
So I don’t think there will be a big draw on the system based on the items above (lights, cell charging, etc)
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jun 2019 16:18
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The inverter is just for lights, charging and a ceiling fan? What voltage and amp is your well pump?
Does the charge controler accept 120v ac from the generator or are you buying a separate 120v to 24vdc battery charger?
They do make inverter/chargers that can even start and run the generator on its own. I say this because you could scrap the small inverter and get a bigger inverter/charger, run the well off the inverter/charger and let it turn the generator on/off when or if its needed.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jun 2019 16:51 - Edited by: ICC
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zorro, what country are you in? $1239 for the Classic 200 seems very high. I can buy the Midnite Classic 200 for less than $700 shipped from several different US sellers. OR if you are not using wind or hydro, just solar panel input, the SL version is something like $40 less. The SL also does not have ethernet capabilities which may be worth the extra $. Depending on how the solar panels are configured you may be able to use the 150 SL version which should be about $15 less than the 200 SL version. The 200 will accept higher input voltage than the 150 (200 vs 150) with the potential downside of being able to pass less amps into the batteries. (about 25 amps less capacity for the 200, the higher voltage version. )
The Samlex inverter looks about right, maybe $40 higher than many other places.
I don't mind folks making a profit, but when the Classic 200 is getting close to being double the cost I gotta wonder if you are in the US or buying the seller a yacht.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jun 2019 17:09
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PLus you know you can buy spare parts, get advice and help if needed when you buy the Midnite.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jun 2019 17:24
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Gee Wiz, I just saw that now... $1239 for a C-200 ouch ! I assumed Canadian and just checked, C200 is $1000 and C200-SL is $938 cdn.
Certainly cheaper in the states, even with 25% currency exchange, duties & taxes + shipping not so good.
It is nice to have the ethernet and monitoring ability, that's a biggy for me anyways. There are some things you really do not want to buy twice....
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jun 2019 17:47
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zorro's membership profile shows USA. ???
Imports like that to Canada are also going to be subject to their GST I believe. That would raise the price above the straight exchange rate.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jun 2019 20:44
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zorro, any indication from those folks as to how the panels are to be wired? All in series? 2P2S? Or??
I ask because 4 in series is over the voltage limit of the Classic 200 when you make allowance for the cold weather factor and 2P2S doesn't make a lot of sense with the single 15 amp array breaker.
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2019 09:25
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Thanks again for the input to everyone
I will be in Upstate NY – so everything in US$
The issue is I know absolutely NOTHING about solar and needing to rely on quotes like I have received and I agree, some of the prices seem to be high
He sells it as a “package†pre-wired on a board……………I know you guys can likely do that blind folded, but that is where I struggle
To be honest, I would rather just buy the individual parts and put it all together myself – I just don’t have that level of knowledge and don’t want to take the risk of burning the new cabin to the ground!
I will also likely purchase a Wetsinghouse Remote Start Dual Fuel Generator - Propane/Gas (9500W Peak/7500W running)
https://amzn.to/2XVboA7
The well pump will be 120V (not sure on the amps as yet, till it gets fitted or at least ordered)
He came back with a new quote as I pushed back on the high price of the CC…………….so this is his new quote with 3 panels (rather than 4 and a much cheaper CC (though NON MPPT)
Are those 3 panels enough for the 8 Trojans?
I think I would still like to use my idea of this, which is 40A and also gives me the MT-50 Remote Meter Display (see below, he thinks he can work with this)
https://amzn.to/2x31yjU
3 Hansol 340W Solar Module 259 $ 777.00
3 Sets MC4 Array Cables 39 117.00
1 3-Position Array Combiner Box 115.00
3 15A Array Circuit Breaker – solar modules 15 45.00
3 Watertight Connectors 3 9.00
1 30A Array Circuit Breaker – charge controller 15 15.00
1 40A Array Circuit Breaker – inverter 15 15.00
1 Mini-Disconnect – Pre-wired 206.00
1 Solarland 30A 24VDC Charge Controller – Pre-Wired 119.00
1 Samlex 600W 24VDC Sine Wave Inverter 299.00
1 Inverter Disconnect Wiring in Pre-Wire plus cables to the battery bank 20.00
1 Negative Bus Bar 17.00
8 Trojan T105 Batteries 169 1,352.00
6 2 Ga. 12†Battery Cable 9 54.00
2 2/0 Ga. 12†battery Cables 12 24.00
16 Battery Anticorrosion Rings .40 6.40
TOTAL: $ 3,190.40
His other comments are………………………..
An array cable (not included in the quote) will be necessary from the array combiner box to the charge controller disconnect. It will have to carry 27 amps at 24VDC (nominal) over the distance between the two which will determine its size. 10 AWG will take you 17’; 8 AWG 30’.
The attached quote reverts back to a non-MPPT controller, which will work for up to three 340W solar modules. This quote does include a pre-wired disconnect for the controller (same as the first quote). I could probably work with the Amazon supplied controller, but would take no responsibility for it. I’m reasonably sure it could be fitted on the mini-disconnect that I quoted for the other two controllers. It may well be a better solution than the attached quote, as it is MPPT. Also you could use either 3 or 4 340W modules with the correct array wiring setup.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2019 09:35
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This system is pretty goofy. The solar controller is way too big. The voltage is too low. And the Samlex inverter is undersized.
I would suggest you look at Ontario Lakesides systems for reference. But if I could add a few points.
The BOS (balance of system) sheesh. Go 48v. It will mean smaller wire. Cheaper costs. Just on your solar controller. You can move from a 60 amp controller to a 35 amp, just by changing your voltage.
So look at the Victron 150/35. And yes. You will need to go 2S/2P on your solar panels. Or 3S. Which would still give you 1kw of solar.
There I've saved you something like 500 bucks.
Does the Classic still have that super slow MPPT algorithm or have they updated it? The EPever or whatever, is actually a pretty good solar controller. I wouldn't worry there.
Again, the Victron is just better. Bluetooth. Easy to use. Best algorithm. Reliability.
I like the Samlex inverters. So you could just upsize to the 1000 or 1500. You will be happier. The Victron 1200w is perfect for your size system.
The CNBOU is a chinese inverter that is very well made. And will last for a very long time. A 2000 would be a good fit. It will run the hair dryer. And the idle load is under 10w/hr.
Warning: Low frequency inverters are best used off grid sparingly. The idle load is very high. If you don't need to start tablesaws and such, stay away. The idle load per day can easily be +1kwh of load. Great if you need to keep a battery box warm in the winter tho!
Finally. Go lithium. Find a guy. Your whole system becomes 20% bigger and more efficient. And your battery pack goes from a 5 year lifespan to 25 years in the blink of an eye. Lead is dead.
Remember, by going 48v over 24 you gain 3-5% more power for free. Lithium adds another 20. So for your dollar. Better efficiency and longer life.
Go solar!
PS-with the system I described above. Buy an electric fridge. There, just saved you a tonne more money on propane costs/equipment purchase.
Feel free to send me a cash donation. smile.
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offgrididaho
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2019 11:16
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A second vote for Victron, hard to go wrong with them. They make nice inverter chargers too, I suggest browsing through their website. If you use multiple Victron items you can combine their data into the Venus and then access that by wifi and web browser on phone or tablet, I can see my battery status / controller status / inverter status all on one screen and at a distance I can't hit the Bluetooth signals (everything's in a shed ~100' away), pretty nifty:
FWIW I consulted with a local solar installer who does grid tie residential in our valley, well respected and knowledgeable guy, but he'd never heard of Victron (never HEARD of them!) so maybe they're not on a lot of land based people's radar, but worth looking into (I figure anything built to marine spec is burly enough to sit in my shed).
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2019 13:56
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Creeky
Thanks for the info
Lithium Batteires are a great option – but right now, are around 2 – 3x more expensive
I know their longevity is significanlty better, but right now, I cannot afford to go down that route
I cant find the Ontario Lakeside website????
But everytime I seem to be getting somewhere, I feel I go back to the beginning with different options
Due to my lack of knowledge and trying to rely on this local guy, I feel I am severly limited in what I can choose
So my initial thoughts, based on what I can gather from here and what this local guy works with is as follows;
• 3 or 4 Panels (1020W/1360W)
• 8 x T105’s (cant afford lithium just now)
• Samlex 1000W 24VDC Inverter?
• EPEVER 40A MPPT Charge Controller 12V 24V Auto
Would that work okay do you think?
And this is mainly for solar lights, switches, cell charging, radio, overhead ceiling fan……………….that pretty much is it………………..oh and 4 adults some of the time
All supported by the 7500W Generator
Ideally I would like the fridge to run off the solar system, but did not think that was possible without a significant drain on the batteries
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Wilbour
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2019 15:33 - Edited by: Wilbour
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Quoting: zorro I cant find the Ontario Lakeside website????
He has frequently posted on this site but here is a video if his https://youtu.be/ZfilBtej3t4 describing his setup.
Simple and small. I think his came under what you're gonna pay and this was in Canadian $ too!
Oh and not to mention buying an electric fridge will save you another bunch of $
If you are willing to drive over the border to Canada you may want to Google bobolink solar and see where that takes you.
US $ is worth $1.338 CAN right now
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2019 16:10 - Edited by: zorro
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below
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2019 16:12
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IF you're going 8 105s. 8x6=48.
I would get a victron 150/35 solar controller. And a Victron 1200 inverter. And run 48v.
Do your 4 panels at 2S/2P. Or 3S. Or 3S/3P. I don't know your use. 3 or 4 season?
This way you can reprogram your specs to lithium when the lead dies. Or when you get tired of the smell/maintenance. Or the crappy performance. Or the ... smile. sorry. I know I go on about it. BUt I did my 5 years 3 months with lead. Never again.
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jun 2019 16:18 - Edited by: zorro
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Thanks creeky
Problem is the local guy i think only uses certain components and dont think Victron is a make he has??
Use will be as much as possible, but likely from November - April not used due to heavy snowfall
And honestly, I hear you on the Lithiums................but this is a new build and need to work to a budget - if I get Lithium............no septic or well !!!!!!
Wilbour Thanks for that
I was looking for a website rather than a Youtube video!
A Canadian trip - never thought of that........certainly worth consdidering if it is VFM?
And will the set up above support a small fridge like this, running for maybe 8 days per month max;
https://amzn.to/2x0Lu1R
This is 120V/0.7Amps = 84Ah
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 08:38
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It will easily support that fridge. And one much larger. The larger fridges often have better insulation. SO they don't use a lot more power.
Don't forget. When you're sizing lithium the amp hour is 1/2 to 1/3 that of lead. You use 80% of the battery not 20% (for longest life).
But I hear you on budget.
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offgrididaho
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 08:50
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Quoting: zorro And will the set up above support a small fridge like this, running for maybe 8 days per month max; https://amzn.to/2x0Lu1RThis is 120V/0.7Amps = 84Ah
Think you're getting your numbers confused (amps * volts = watts).
To do all your calculations it's often easiest to tabulate everything as watt hours instead of amp hours, because amp hours are by definition going to vary between 24v or 48v system, or with 120v appliances through inverter. Especially since since your local guy is talking about a 24v system but others above are advocating for 48v (more efficient but the components can cost more) for now, safer to compare items by comparing their watt hours.
That fridge appears (from the Q&A, can't find the actual specs in their description) to run at right around 1 amp, so that's 120 watts. Figure it runs ~ half the time (more when it's hot, and depends on how well insulated it is) and you're looking at ~1440 watts hours per day. Since it will run through the inverter, apply a conversion inefficiency penalty of ~10% and you get 1580 watt hours per day. From a 12v battery that's 132 amp hours per day, without going below 50% SOC you'd need 264 amps of power to run that fridge for one day without any outside charging source.
So now you have the numbers you can decide if that's workable. Your 8 Trojan T105's will give you 10.8kwh total, 5.4kwh (5400wh) usable. So that bank, without anything else, could run that fridge for 3 1/2 days.
There are more efficient options out there though, and this is where spending more can save you. High draw items that you don't use very frequently (my electric weed wacker comes to mind), whatever, save your money buy something cheap and inefficient and run your generator... but for something that's going to run 24/7 it can be worth investing in something low draw.
For example, this full size fridge:
http://www.avantiproducts.com/products/id/578
... claims to draw ~1040 watt hours per day (345kwh/year divided by 365 plus an inverter inefficient of 10%)... 33% power saving right there.
If you like smaller, consider the 12v/120v combo units for RV's, even running off 120v power they're still very efficient. Yes they're more like $900 not $200 but we're talking cold beer here!
This guy:
https://www.thetford.com/product/dc558/
draws 38 watts when running, going 50% of the time you're looking at 460 watt hours per day.
This guy (bigger):
https://www.thetford.com/product/n1090/
... you're going to feel like you've got a real fridge, if you use night mode 12 hours a day you're looking at 500 watt hours per day, that's 1/3 of the dorm fridge.
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 09:13
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Thanks for that info – very helpful
To be honest, I don’t have a clue what I am talking about when it comes to this……………..so no surprise I got it wrong!
But that 3.5 days cuts it tight, especially with lights, cell charges, fan, etc also running in the cabin
Those 3 options look great and their low power use would be great as well
However, I really need a unit which will fit under the counter top – so those would be perfect, but don’t fit
Seems my other option it to go back to the propane option and consider this unit;
https://www.goedekers.com/UniqueOffGrid-UGP-3-SM-B.html
But thanks again for the info
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 10:46
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Top Marks to Unique offgrid appliances, the quality is outstanding. An LPG fridge is not cheap to run ! Seriously, a small electric fridge will be more efficient and WAY cheaper ! I have a Danby 10cu foot "apartment" apartment which only uses 247kwh per year !
I have the version before this one (which has a better door setup internally) https://www.costco.ca/Danby-24-in.-Stainless-Steel-Top-Mount-10-cu.ft-Refrigerator.pr oduct.100325105.html
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 11:02
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Honestly, I don’t know the answer to the fridge issue
From above, looks like the small under counter fridge I was thinking about may draw too much on a daily basis – it would have been perfect
The other 3 fridges above look great, seem to be less of a draw………………but will not fit under the counter and I have no other place for them
So at the moment, it looks like the propane option or a cooler if all else fails………………and I really don’t want to just use a cooler each time
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 11:24
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Zorro, here's a ponderance for ya... I bought a 20' 1973 Terry Taurus Camper Trailer for cheap.
The LPG / Electric fridge was good but I had no use for it. The little LPG / 12V furnace was recycled as my powerhouse furnace and a lot of other stuff from it got upcycled.. The trailer is being turned into another structure on wheels (not a tiny home, an office of sorts).
Check around with the local RV & Marine joints. They often have take outs from people upgrading their gear, some older ones can be gotten for next to nothing and sometimes you can even get a whole trailer with all of it for < $1000 cdn. just be warned that taking an old RV apart can often lead to surprises (unpleasant ones too) but with care, not hard and you get a great base for a trailer to use.
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offgrididaho
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 12:07
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Before you go propane consider cost and how you'd get propane to your property... not saying it's not an option, but factor in tank(s), how you fill a tank or do you haul 5 gallon tanks or ???
If you need small and efficient then RV fridges would be the way to go.
I have this fridge in my camper van:
http://tinyurl.com/y6rwwo97
... for example, only a couple of inches in a few dimensions bigger than the dorm fridge you're looking at. Yes, more expensive, but draws 30 watts when running, even in hot van in summer only runs about 50% of the time over a 24 hour period, that's 360 watt hours per day, has just enough of a freezer to make a few trays of ice. I can go about 48-60 hours in my van with this and a few LED lights as my only draw on 2 crappy 75ah 12v batteries with 100w of solar before I'm at 50% SOC and need to run my generator.
(I see this fridge gets some poor reviews, I've been pleased with it and most of the bad reviews are that it's not a direct drop in replacement, which is something I experienced so understand their frustration... the overall dimensions are the same as the fridge it "replaces" but the biggest dimensions are in different places than on the old fridge, it hit up against the side of my van... doh).
-- Bass
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zorro
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 12:59 - Edited by: zorro
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Thanks again guys
Will look at the RV options as well
Looking back at the Propane Fridge
It says;
Runs times: Runs up to 30 days on a 20lb propane tank
Now I will only be using it at the weekends - late Friday to mid Sunday.............so maybe 2.5 or say 3 days
So that would be around 12 days max per month - that 20lb tank should last around 2.5 months at that rate??
That is not too bad i dont think?
and fairly easy to haul in a 20lb tank every few months
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ICC
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 15:48 - Edited by: ICC
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Propane fridges take longer to cool down that 120 VAC. Just mentioned that in case you did not know. Can be a bother when only used for a couple days at a time.
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 16:33
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I didnt know that either - thanks 
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offgrididaho
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 17:35
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Quoting: ICC Propane fridges take longer to cool down that 120 VAC. Just mentioned that in case you did not know. Can be a bother when only used for a couple days at a time.
And maybe not always the case, but it does seem to me that propane fridges are a lot more expensive than electric... to the tune of "why not just spend less on the fridge and buy more panels" kind of choice...
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