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Dobie
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2014 17:04
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Hey folks. I started researching properties and cottages a few years ago. I found that the rules drastically changed in almost every municipality to exclude anything that doesn't require big money. Is
there anything left in this province (south of Parry Sound) that doesn't have any ridiculous rules or fees that impede building or even staying on your land.
I don't want to build a house of pop cans and tires but there seems to be nothing but go small and illegal or go big.
I looked in the muskokas, pretty high fees and bad bylaws. I looked north of muskoka, it gets a little better but there are still size restrictions. I also looked on the other side by the bruce and those were ever worse. 1000sqf minimums seems like a waste for a single guy and a major waste of resources. I'd be happy with 450sqf. Anything south of there is farm land or the dev fees start getting into the tens of thousands or hundreds when you hit south of barrie.
The bruce seems especially bad and most people up there selling land are taking people for a ride. My local paper is filled with endless pieces of land that have been cleared and prepped but nobody built a thing on it and now its for sale by owner. I wonder if all these rules are slowly going to backfire on the municipalities.
So where would you build today if you wanted to do something small and modest under $50k ??
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2014 17:34 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: Dobie I wonder if all these rules are slowly going to backfire on the municipalities.
The rules are made up by and for those people who already own land and pay taxes locally. It could be that the rules that are in place may be doing just what the present landowners want... keep newcomers with sparse funding away....
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Dobie
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2014 18:49
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I thought that was pretty obvious, I think we all know this already. The local councils have corrupted the province for years for their own benefit. But let's not get off topic since that is totally different discussion.
If you noticed, all areas of wealth building have been curbed since 2008, that includes everything from the low income family getting a starter mortgage for 5% (now illegal thanks to flaherty) or alternative buildings and small buildings, land transfers, etc have been all made to be more expensive or impossible.. In our system money is at a fixed amount so every cent they gouge here and there is a cent saved for someone else in the system. Unfortunately that's the system and it comes from Ottawa but trickles all the way down to local politics.
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Wilbour
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2014 20:52 - Edited by: Wilbour
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Most town councils say no, but if you ask "What about that guy?" The answer is "he did not ask"
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2014 21:11
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Dobie, if your not interested in a "commute" ... in other words are going to be at your place 24/7 doin your own thing....
Look into Renfrew, Bonnechere Valley, up to Pembroke Petawawa. Much more "relaxed" and extended "Hunt Cabins" are pretty common...  A tad north west of that, there are unorganized townships which is pretty much "do what you want how you want".
BTW: "Owner Designed & Built & Used" has some different (simpler) rules.
Hope it helps
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creeky
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2014 10:10
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steve's got a good point. that's lovely area too. lots of nice little lakes. easy access to the mighty Ottawa river. hills and valleys.
heck. you'll have a blast just driving around and seeing all the cool properties. better get yerself a fuel efficient scout vehicle tho.
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Dobie
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2014 10:22
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I'm in Acton . That's why I said south of Parry sound. I know the rules get better going towards Ottawa but at those distances I might as well travel to the USA.
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skootamattaschmidty
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2014 14:39
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Check out the Land O' Lakes region in Eastern Ontario. This includes Lennox and Addington counties. From Acton you will be about 3 hours and with the extension of the 407 it will be even faster when it's complete. It's probably an easier drive than trying to get north towards Parry Sound on a busy weekend. The Kawartha's may be. Nice area to check as well.
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LoonWhisperer
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2014 14:44
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^Agreed, regarding the Land O Lakes area. A more lenient area than many and the by-laws overall seemed reasonable. I found the Kawartha's however to be extremely restrictive.
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Dobie
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2014 21:16
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Not bad..
I was also looking out McKellar and McDougall as well .. I know its not south of parry but very close and just a few km north by hwy 124 . They have a 650sqf minimum and no dev fees.
I also read somewhere that another municipality up there cut their dev fees in half ? I just can't find the page again and don't remember the towns name.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2014 08:08
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Dobie,
Just remember that in Ontario with the recent changes to building codes (more coming in 2015) the simplest & easiest option is "Owner Designed, Built & Used". They have considerably relaxed on Grey Water systems (lake & river areas have special considerations).
There are NO MINIMUMS per Ontario Building Code... not that I know of and I talk to my building inspector a couple of times a week... and he doesn't say there are any minimums. That is per region, municipality or county.
Rules also loosen up IF your not hooking up to Hydro - surprisingly quite a bit.
There are still many good places @ reasonable prices with reasonable rules... Just may have to extend your range a bit to find "just the right property".
Last Tip... I spent months & months looking for a property all over the web, listings, seeing localised Realtors and reading local paper want ads... I finally found our paradise property by furtling around the back roads, side roads and off the beaten path. Don't lose hope !
We have deer, moose, black bear, wild turkeys (LOTS OF EM) fox and more coming to visit us on our property almost daily... They are curious as to what the Two Leggers are doing. Southern side of hill side on the ridge with constant breeze, glacial rock deposits * great for landscaping & building material (slip form stone work etc) and mixed bush, mostly White Cedar, White & Red Pine.
You'll find what you want, hopefully Winter won't invade first... not much point at looking at snow, you can't see what's there.
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leonk
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2014 09:21
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Steve, you seem to have given a lot of thought to the land search.
Do you mind sharing the going prices? I keep asking this question, because I can't figure out what's a good price looks like, if an opportunity comes up.
I understand, of course, it's based on location, size, road access, water features and other factors.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2014 07:40
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Well to be honest, I started looking at properties from 15,000 to 30,000. That's for "raw" land. Meaning no Hydro, Well or other... anything extra would be a bonus. I wanted a minimum of 1 acre (imperial) or more.
I did find a few plots @ 20,000 with 2 to 3 acres.
I found one with 9 acres for 15,900 near Kaladar BUT was un-marked, Un-Surveyed (survey is easy 2k) mixed bush & part bog. (Still available I believe) Here is the link:
http://realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=14566282
This is another nice property but it has quirks, U MUST have a "Real 4x4" for wintertime BUT has a well & Hydro (over back of property line) and some really cool neighbours around (many off grid, independent types who seemed quite willing to jump in, lend a hand types... http://realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=13967878
This one has a cabin and pretty much ready to go...
http://realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=14443671 BUT 39K is the ask ...
Here is the tricks... Figure out what are Need to have's, Must Have's, Want to have's, Like to have's and would be Nice to have's. Your goal post is the Need to Have's & Must have's.
If your going to generate your own power Solar / Wind then get a southern exposure, be it on a hill or with good open clear space for it... Buying something on a North Side of a hill is never a good idea anyways (well 6 months a year anyways). If you want to generate with Micro-Hydro then you must have good flowing water (year round) & be in a permitted area.
There are MANY FISBO's in my Area (FISBO = For Sale by Owner). Nothing wrong with buy private BUT you will as purchaser need a Real Estate lawyer (preferably in the area your buying, they know the region & the who's what's, where's etc) as you want to ensure Title & Deeds are right and GET A SURVEY !!! Typically you'll drop 2K on an RE lawyer.
If I would have had the cash, I would have purchased another property down the road from me for 49K. 25 acres with a small lake in it (creek fed) with a side bog.... It's in a valley and has excellent Southern Face and only about 5 acres would be useable "if" cleared. Mostly Cedar & Red Pine with some Tamarak.
For us, most of our criteria's were:
* Mixed clear & wooded (mixed woods) was important.
* Good Southern Exposure. (On south side of ridge)
* Workable land for Garden / Greenhouse. (1/3 acre clear & open with some junipers running wild)
* Good Stone & Lumber potential. (construction materials)
* Good backset from roadway with plenty of trees between homestead & road.
* Year Round Access !!!
** Phone (don't need it as 4G Coverage is good & XplorNet for Satellite for Web)
** Hydro - Solar & Wind being installed as 9 of 10 days we have breeze (bonus of south side of Ridge)
I won't say what we paid BUT the property was listed @ 32,000 5 years ago, went on & off market a couple of times. Was located via Realtor.ca but un-signed and it took effort to locate it... we bought & closed in 5 days for less than 1/2 the original price including legal & survey. TIMING IS EVERYTHING and Cash in hand Rules ! My Lawyer even did the vendors lawyer's paperwork for him and sent it to expedite it (the vendors lawyer was not a real estate lawyer and would have taken 2 weeks to figure it out).
WORD OF CAUTION ON CASH TRANSACTIONS !!!
Thanks to our current dictatorship & situation, any "cash" transactions over 10,000 must be reported. In real-estate this requires FINTRAC forms to ensure the funds do not come from Proceeds of Crime, Terrorism etc.... Best to have the cash @ lawyers office from a direct bank transfer and have the lawyer cut the cheques. Realtors especially get caught up on this, so keep deposits to not more than 20% of purchase price, usually $500 is good enough in most cases anyways.
OOPS ! SORRY !!
This is much longer than intended but you must be prepared for an answer if you ask a question. I usually like to cover the bases and make no assumptions that people know or don't know something. You may, but the next fella reading, may not.
BTW/PS: You may be wondering why Stone & Woods are important to us. Slipform Stone Walls to be used as building base walls for Cordwood / Stackwall construction of our bigger house when we build that as well as other projects. The woods (particularly species [Eastern White Cedar]) also for the Cordwood House for which I intend to use my Mk-3 Alaska Mill and a friends Portable Mill to do the large part of my wood...
Hope it helps, sorry it's so long.
Steve
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Dobie
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2014 11:21 - Edited by: Dobie
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Geez Steve thanks for that bit of info. The areas are still on the wrong side of the province for me but at least its a start if the parry sound area doesn't work out.
I have no idea what "Owner Designed, Built & Used" means in terms of what the municipality excepts but I'll look into that. I did want to design and build myself and my design is simple but to code.
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leonk
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2014 14:14
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thanks, Steve, all useful info.
I am looking north or Parry Sound-Huntsville line.
Making an offer on 'stale' land seems to successful for a lot of people.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2014 19:59
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Owner designed, built is just something in the building code which allows owners of a property to design & build their own structure.. to code but without requiring an engineers stamp etc... (costs in other words and less flexible).
Also, while codes allow it, some municipalities are weird about grey water & composting toilets, if that's what you have been thinking of doing. Grey water isn't a biggy to do, doing mine on Monday in fact... and the last 6 feet of trench for my water supply...
Stale Land, for sale by owners (with caution), also checking the Real Estate offices, agents, local realtor ad papers, in the local towns / villages is a good way to find stuff. There are some Tax Sales as well, more tend to come up in the spring I found. Just google.ca "Land tax sales Ontario" and you'll find a few...
I've gotten some good leads just by asking folks in stores in towns within the area... And also ones to AVOID....
Ohhh Something else for Ontario in General. I'm told that if you get a property which fronts onto a Provincial Highway, certain limits & restriction can apply. These could be from type of dwelling, location (back-sets etc) (many 2 laner's have 4 lane future planning).
Glad some of this info is of service... Just trying to share some of the experiences I gained while doing the hunt for land... Kinda wish I had somewhat of a heads up when I started looking for peaceful & relaxing rural land to homestead on.
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Dobie
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2014 21:01
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I don't mind for sale by owner. I know how to do the research and got a lot of good info from the tax sale site. They say no matter how well you do your research, there is always a chance you can get burned. You buy something and then you find out a few weeks later that someone spilled oil and the municipality orders you to clean it up, or worse hires a company to clean it up and sends you the bill. I'm willing to take this chance.
I was thinking of a septic, not too crazy about the outhouse as I often have to pee at night but I'm willing to go that route if money doesn't allow for a septic. I would do the holes and pipes myself with my auger and hire someone to drop in the septic tank.
I'm definitely owner designing.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2014 07:14
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Typically a septic can run you 10-20 K BUT that's for a normal house with 3 br's and kids... Big factor in that is what the soil is and drainage field required. Drainage Tile, aggregates for the field, tank, excavation & install of tank, plan & mapping + permits & inspections & believe it or not, more property taxes...
Estimates for us, came in between 8-10 K for a 1-Br Home (that's how they figured it) minimal drain field, smaller tank minimal aggregate as we are on 6"-10" top soil with sandy loam underneath (4-9 feet) and granite bedrock on a hill side (good drainage).
Grey-water & composting toilet does not means using an outhouse LOL. Grey-water is just sink, shower etc... NO POOP AT ALL (which causes black water / toxic sewage) so a Urinal in your bathroom solves that... and let's be honest guys... We have ALL wanted our own Urinals and hate the Toilet Seat Lifting & putting down for those (too silly to look before sitting) folks. A composting toilet (self built) won't cost you $100 unless you get fancy and even then... a Commercial product such as Envirolet or Sun-Mar (both approved for Ontario) will cost a bundle and you'll hate'm ! Many folks are swearing by Natures Head which has the urine separation...
There are many composting "systems" and most of them are mucho peso. BUT Humanure Handbook & Wells & Septic Systems are good reads - Humanure especially.
Lastly, either Septic or Greywater requires it to be at minimum 50' from well head, 75' preferred & down line if on hill...
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Dobie
Member
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2014 09:09
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I'm only confused about one thing then... Who sets the rules for what you can do regarding the bathroom / toilet ? Is it the province or the municipality. I'm pretty sure I called the bruce and they said no permit until you have a septic. But the woman sounded like a real b* so maybe she was wording it to their benefit by not telling me that a septic is not a must and there are alternatives.
I knew a septic wasn't cheap and figured it would be around $5k-$8k with me doing most of the work.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2014 09:57
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Quoting: Dobie Who sets the rules for what you can do regarding the bathroom / toilet ?
State or province.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2014 11:59
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Great info Steve_S.
Dobie. Stop drinking beer and your night time p problems will disappear. kidding. a pee bucket tho collects great fertilizer for plants and trees. and your dna will be added to the historical record.
I can't say I like any of the "approved" composting toilets but i've had an envirolet for 4 years now and it works well. It is a "muldering toilet" in a plastic box. You can build your own. But if you need a quick fix... Of course I got mine second hand from a guy who had bought his second hand. So .30 on the dollar.
to add to the composting bucket idea. google boshaki. i'm trying it this winter, but the Japanese have been using it for hundreds/thousands of years. basically you pickle your #2, which I find hilarious.
there is a great diy septic system on youtube. google rv septic system diy. the guy used 50 gallon barrels.
I will add. also check with the locals. there can be decent savings if you find a good installer. locally we have some real nice folks. cheaper than diy.
Elements of the hydro equation: for many parts of Ontario look up wind maps online. Ontario isn't great for wind. I know. I was surprised too.
plus: solar is cheap now and very (and improving) reliable. In the past 5 years I've had one outage. Ya. Take that grid. (sure. it was a major pita and I had to deal with it myself, but) And while my lead acid batteries are only a few years from expiration ... there are better batteries already available. ie. lifepo4 lfp lithium ferrous phosphate.
A property that is "islanded" off the grid could save you the money needed for a solar system. and in Ontario hooking into the grid costs $$$. $10k to hook in "just across the road" is not unusual.
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Dobie
Member
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2014 12:46
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If the province governs this area of waste management then I don't know why the bruce penninsula people were so nasty. I was asking all the right questions and gave no impression that I wanted to build a rat hole.
It still doesn't look doable to me because the lady mentioned a septic requirement based on size and at 1000sqf they will assume that I have a family of 6 that takes huge dumps. If they actually do allow this as you guys say I'm buying tomorrow. I can live with the 1000sqf or mandatory septic but probably not both. This would push me out of the area or underground in a rat shack.
I might just buy a piece of land up there and get doggie bags for 99 cents and drop my waste at taco bell on the way home or at the office of the municipality.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2014 19:38
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The province sets base guidelines as I understand it. Then the municipalities / counties set their own based on local, urban, sub-urban, rural, farm, acreage, cottage etc...
As for cost of septic, it can vary a lot and with you doing a fair bit maybe cheaper but as creeky suggested, local installers, excavation companies do it a lot at fair price. 20K is for serious high end in sensitive areas. Differences in water table are also to be considered. There really is no way till you have the land itself to know, so it's just don't be surprised and think about stuff when looking at land.
Another handy tool is the Ontario Well Maps Database which is nice to know what the neighbours wells are like around a property your interested in.. But geography to consider as well.
Drilling a well...
If possible, get a Cable Drill Well as opposed to a Bore Well, cable fractures rock on the way down by pounding... this create better water flow at shallower depths more often than not. Bore just cuts it out without fracturing, usually goes deeper resulting in higher mineral content (hardness).
When the Hydro One guy hit 35K I laughed so hard I almost hurt myself ! NOT GONNA HAPPEN !!! for the privilege of paying them more for delivery, service, debt retirement than the actual amount of hydro that I use... I'm doing that now with my 3br townhouse and it just ain't funny ! Solar & Wind with backup generator here....  on Hydro !
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Dobie
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2014 08:37
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That's great. Thanks for all the info Steve. I'm not a big fan of Hydro myself. I love it at home but when I go up north I like to rough it. I wouldn't pay 20k for hydro on a solo cabin. I could go away every winter for the next 5 years at that price.
There is enough battery life these days to power little devices for weeks and I can live with candles and flashlights. A little power generation would help but I don't see it as a big problem. When the power goes out due to storms I'm one of the few people who do just fine and don't miss it at all.
The problem is convincing a municipality to allow a building without hydro or septic for a 1000sqf house. As far as I could tell these were a must and if I'm mistaken that's all the better for me.
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bushbunkie
Member
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2014 20:39
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Hi Dobie,
I just posted an update under "100 sq. ft Cabin on Lake Huron"...from one southwestern ontario guy to another....I feel your pain and frustration re. trying to build your own little piece of heaven.
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