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Rickant
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 08:28
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Hoping there are some small cabin folks that have some experience on the Quebec side. I am looking at a property in the litchfield area. It has a cabin on it, mostly finished. It was built in 2000 and has hydro and septic although I am told it is a cedar box system. I am inquiring with the municipality to see if it was built with permits and inspected. It is 3 season. There are some obvious things that are not to code (well not in Ontario). There is a second floor patio door with an unfinished deck and no railing. There are some joust spans that look to be overspanned, but I am not an engineer. The structure seems to be on posts on either deck blocks or patio blocks or a combination thereof. My concern is that if this was built in 2000 I would be surprised if you could get a pass on an inspection. The flooring in the eating area has heaved a bit but I don't think that it is uncommon in seasonal buildings on this type of structure. One of my concerns is what if this was not permitted? Could it be ordered taken down? It has been sold to a second owner in 2011. It has a survey and all building are on it.
Thoughts?
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 09:44
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Grandfather rules would apply.
If it was permitted (if required) and passed at the time, no worries. If no permit was required when built, that's OK too but I would be critically attentive to the structure.
The unfinished deck without railings is a NO-NO for an occupancy certificate (if permit req) and immediately negates insurance as an unaddressed liability. If the deck was built Post Inspection & Cert and left incomplete, the building dept would not have much to say (rural small region) unless someone told them... Depends if a permit was obtained to build it.
Heaving is BAD ! No if's, and's or but's about it ! Now if this is a 10x10 Bunkie then "Ces't la vie mon amis" but if this is a larger - more permanent type of structure, it is a huge flag to pay attention to.
Tear Down ? Well if the place was built in an area requiring permits and if they were never obtained &/or signed off on, then knock is highly possible. If the building is within "un-permitted limits" at the time of construction then grandfathered in. Survey indicating the buildings etc is GOOD which a bonus.
Cedar Box Septic ? Ohhh Myyyy maybe a Grey Water system ? (God I hope that is what it is) but as a septic holding tank ---- no no no.... jokes etc aside, Quebec may have some backward & peculiar ideas BUT not when it comes to things like that and I have seen my fair share of Creative Quebecois Construction which would boggle most minds.
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Rickant
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 09:51
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It's definitely not a bunkie. I've seen lots of cottages with some heaving but it's not ideal, there is obviously a post out of whack. I am thinking the patio door was added in replacing a window. In any case will see what the municipality says.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 10:45
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I'm situated near Maniwaki and you will find that the local building inspection processes will vary greatly. However, the provincial rules on waterfront are very strict throughout the province - including septic impact on waterways. As a recreational cabin, I am allowed to use an outhouse and my own grey water sump - but this also results in other limitations (no pressurized water for example). Pumping of septic tanks is mandated yearly (controlled by the municipality and paid for automatically on taxes for those with septic tanks). They don't fool around with this stuff. I did have to have an engineer report to show that I could put in a legal septic system if I wanted to in the future (or for a future owner). Other than this, my building permit cost $40 and took about 10 minutes to get.
As Steve, mentions, heaving for a larger cabin would be a big warning sign, specifically if it is just sitting on deck blocks or patio stones! But, my biggest worry would be the cedar septic box because, even if currently grandfathered, when you need to fix or replace it, you will be subject to the current rules, not old ones, so you could be in for a big cost. I would really check this out carefully.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 10:57
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Don't know how they do things up there, but generally, if built without permits it's not an automatic tear-down. You can get a permit to legalize any unpermitted building by bringing it up to code. but sometimes this can be far more expensive than it is worth. If you have to put in a whole new concrete foundation system, make serious structural alterations, open up the walls to expose the structure and electrical and plumbing, etc., then the cost could easily be higher than building a new building.
But what could cause it to be an automatic tear-down would be planning rules- zoning codes. If it is simply built in the wrong place where they would never permit a structure, and was built without approval to begin with, they'll make you tear it down.
You are very wise to fully investigate before you buy. I've seen people get badly hurt who did not.
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Rickant
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 10:59
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Great info guys, thanks. I've emailed the municipality so will report back what I find.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 13:41
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In Quebec, Tear Down order's happen but not too often. The Litchfield Area has several protected zones throughout it for different reasons and as Raz stated, the rivers, creeks, lakes etc are protected with serious restrictions. That entire "Septic" thing would be a massive worry, especially if your within 300 feet of ANY water. A good friend had the most horrid of surprises in the Gatineau's because of an old "grandfathered in" septic holding tank that leaked (was 20 feet from shore line by then) but when it had been installed 50 years prior it was 70' from shore.
Rickant, if your out of Ottawa or the Gat's and looking for something within 150km +/- a bit, consider perusing around Pembroke, Petawawa or even Golden Lake (Renfrew county) which are fair minded regions where the prices haven't gone nuts yet. I as well as a few other's here are in that area...
BTW: Good place to check listings which include MLS + other's is https://www.realtor.ca/ There is a couple of sweet spots up off Lake Dore, a lovely 15 acres bush lot near Golden Lake (cut 10 yrs ago so scruffy now) for if mem serves 18,000 w/ power/phone at roadside. NB: Building Inspector in Renfrew = Delusional self-important moron, fortunately he's going... I have people that suffered him. Many Mennonites / Amish coming up to this area now which most of us out here agree is a very good thing as they are recovering the huge farms that started to fallow.
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Rickant
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 14:46
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Yep, I am in the Ottawa area and have been looking more down the highway 7 corridor. So far too expensive. Saw a nice property on buckshot lake but it had sketchy septic and gray water that were not compliant and possibly couldn't have septic legally on the lot. The property in litchfield works really well, it's flat, sandy water entry, good cabin space. But I won't even consider it if I can't get answers to the original permit, septic, structure. We are looking for good waterfront so at this price point it is like finding a needle in a haystack. I'd love to build a small cabin or get a prefab but with four kids I just don't have time. Sigh.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 15:02
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Ohh Yeah, down 7 through Kaladar will be pricey. That's where I was looking initially as well, found a few possibles back then but when I found one I really liked, the North Frontenac folks were more uptight that the squeaker's in Toronto. So I then started searching up Hwy 41, then down the both ends of 60 followed by lot's of furtling down the back roads and all the way out to Barry's Bay even. Eventually I found my place but that was after a couple of thousand km's of driving & looking over a year and a half.
Hang in there, the Right Place for you and the family IS out there waiting for you to find it. BTW: Further North you go into Bush Country the more things get flexible... IE I have a Recreational Hunt Camp with minimal requirements, grey water system and virtually no hassles from any Govern-mental dimmie.
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Rickant
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 15:11
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Interesting. We were looking at a few lots on Malcolm lake and in my inquiries with north Frontenac they seemed very reasonable. No building fee, no minimum size, will even allow trailers for a small fee. I think they are trying to expand the tax base but who knows. South of 7 is a no-go, too exp and the building restrictions and fees are crazy. I love big gull lake but it is out of our reach for now. Love buckshot too. Will keep looking and maybe in the mean time all the due diligence will work out for litchfield. The spring market has barely started. That being said, we looked all last summer and came up empty. Saw a great lot on Malcolm lake but turned out to be within 500m of a closed dump!
Cmon lottomax!
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Rickant
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 15:14
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Oh also Barry's bay, have stayed on the river near combermer and negeek lake, awesome waterway!
Anyone know anything about Aylen lake?
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 16:06
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South of Hwy 7 down 41 is 90% protected wetlands and what is available to buy is scarily expensive as a result. The closer to the St-Lawrence and the more your spending. Sorry, I had meant South Frontenac, I had to look at my paperwork to make sure and yeah, the fella's in North Front were reasonable.
Actually I am down a snaky back road which used to be the access road to an old township dump decommissioned 20 or so years ago, so it is as peaceful & quiet as you can imagine. A Bonus Side Effect which I never realized, because the wildlife foraged that dump for so many years, there is fruit trees and all sorts of edibles growing everywhere...
Consider poking around places like Eganville, Balaclava and up into Foymount (BTW: Many good properties there, some woodlots too) many are For Sale By Owner so you have to poke around for those. As you know, this area is full of creeks, rivers, lakes but the closer down to the Ottawa River like Cobden where the lands are flat the prices starter to climb up but not too radically.
Good Luck with the find in Litchfield and update us.
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Rickant
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 17:04
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The thing I didn't mention is I have some document from the agent with all of these questions about the property that is some sort of attestation from the sellers. The also gold a mortgage with TD which should also be positive
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2017 18:38
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In the US sellers have the legal obligation to disclose all that they know about the property. But it's still best to get it from the local authorities, to know all of what they have on record on the property, what they don't, and what sort of rules apply if you do any building. Talk to the building dept., planning, and health. If there are any easement issues, or culvert drainage issues then talk to public works.
Let us know what you find
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Rickant
Member
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2017 15:44
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The municipality confirmed that everything was installed with permits. The don't have the plans on file though.
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morock
Member
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2017 18:59
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Double check the cadastral. We had a package of info from the owners, but the province had surveyed the lots all wrong. Not fun straightening that one out.
I am 5 years into my build and have never seen or heard from an inspector. However, everything major you do needs to designed by an engineer up front and submitted for approval. Completely different my experiences in ontario. That maybe specific to my area too, not sure.
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razmichael
Member
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2017 19:53
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Quoting: morock owever, everything major you do needs to designed by an engineer up front and submitted for approval.
My two cents here - this may be true in your area but not across the province. As I mentioned earlier, my permit process was simple and approval was based only on my google sketch up diagrams, mostly focused on the site plan rather than any code or engineering review. Nobody checked my beam calculations, or ridge beam sizes for example. In fact, my site made Gambrel rafters would have normally needed engineering approval for any standard build. As per your experience, I did not have any sort of inspection other than one visit from the only person in the municipality who gave out the permits - and she was more interested in the great view.
My point is that a "permit" may or may not imply a well built (or at least code) building. In Rickant's case, he spotted some potential concerns with the building and should continue to be vigilant despite permits being pulled. Naturally this should always be the case anyway!
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Rickant
Member
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2017 08:28
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We just got a copy of the cadasttal. Most everything is in order. The Septic has a grey water part that is a 4x4x4 cedar crib and the other part is a tank and field and the tank is plastic or whateve. All done with permits. There is deck platform and a small pump shed that are inside the 15m protected area that shouldn't be, but they have been there for years by looking at the real estate pictures. There is a new garage (one of those half circle steel ones) that was installed with permits on a slab and is encroaching on the road allowance considerably. Been there since 2012. The setback was measures from the roadside instead of the property lone duh. Other than that everything seems in order now. Now it's the double check to see if we want to be at the cottage every weekend all summer and for summer holidays. With four kids.
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Rickant
Member
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2017 09:48
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We just got a copy of the cadasttal. Most everything is in order. The Septic has a grey water part that is a 4x4x4 cedar crib and the other part is a tank and field and the tank is plastic or whateve. All done with permits. There is deck platform and a small pump shed that are inside the 15m protected area that shouldn't be, but they have been there for years by looking at the real estate pictures. There is a new garage (one of those half circle steel ones) that was installed with permits on a slab and is encroaching on the road allowance considerably. Been there since 2012. The setback was measures from the roadside instead of the property lone duh. Other than that everything seems in order now. Now it's the double check to see if we want to be at the cottage every weekend all summer and for summer holidays. With four kids.
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