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spicyacres
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 09:59
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My buddy who's in construction couldn't believe it when I framed my 8x8 greenhouse last summer the old school way - with a hammer.
Now that I'm planning my 16x16 cabin build, he says I absolutely have to use a compressor/nail gun. What does everyone here think? Btw, I'll have a 3000W continuous/4000W peak power generator on site.
Thanks!
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Just
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 10:16
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that's lots for a nail gun.they do make a strong building.and fast
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 10:18 - Edited by: turkeyhunter
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i built my house 14 years ago---i was the contractor and had subs==the framing contractor i had --was no nail guns allowed---and i was anti-nail gun --until now!!! if i can't shoot a nail with a nail gun it bother's me  ---i picked up a 5 gallon bucket this weekend--half full of CC 16's for 2 bucks---i would hate to drive them with a hammer---!!!!!
on my new cabin build---90% with nail gun---picked up a Passload frame nailer for 40 bucks worth it's weight in gold!!!!! and also picked up a pancake compessor like new at the pawn shop for 40....best 80 bucks you could spend!!!! i pickup boxes of nails for my nailgun at yard sales for $10 a box sometimes!!!
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 10:38
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For anything more than just a few nails here or there I get out the compressor (usually the small pancake one) and a nail gun. Time saver and an arm saver.
There are some things to be aware of though and they can be dangerous if used incorrectly or carelessly. #1; it is not a good idea to hand a hand anywhere near where the gun is going to shoot a nail. Bad idea holding a piece in place and nailing right beside it. Use a clamp.
The nails in a nail gun stick are generally smaller diameter than a common hand driven nail. A 16D common nail has a diameter of 0,162: and a length of 3.5". Many (not all), many nail gun nails that are called 16D are only 0.131" in diameter. That is more like a box nail and they do not have the same shear strength. If a nailing chart indicates that two 16D common nails should be used for a particular connection you would need three of the box nail to have equal strength. Not a big deal usually but something to keep in mind.
It is very easy with many/most air nailers to overdrive a nail. Over drive is to bury the head below the wood surface. That reduces strength of the joint especially when nailing sheathing on a wall or roof. If the structure is being inspected a good inspector will red tag something like that. Some nailers offer a depth setting to help prevent over driving. Mine is an older model so I just watch the air pressure, nail and then have to give most sheathing nails a single hammer blow to set correctly.
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 11:38
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Quoting: MtnDon Over drive is to bury the head below the wood surface.
that is the one thing i watch for the most!!!! ---good point !!!!!
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DaJTCHA
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 12:44
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My porter cable pancake compressor equipped with a framing nailer, finish nailer and brad/pin nailer is the best piece of equipment I ever bought. It has built many decks and now my cabin. I would not have wanted to even know how it felt to do any of the framing and building of my cabin by hand.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 14:08
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I built a 8x12 shed in my back yard with a hammer. Last year I built our 14x20 cabin with a nail gun. I enjoyed both projects, but I would never build anything bigger than a dog house with a hammer again. Time is MONEY!
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Martian
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 14:19
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Aside from having to watch out for nails coming out the side of a board after hitting a knot, they'll knock your studs out of place, too. I used Torx drive #10X4" construction grade screws, and drove them with an 18V Dewalt impact driver. If you catch a grain, just back 'em out and do it again. A good framing job makes every step from there a lot easier. It is more expensive to use screws, though.
Tom
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fpw
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 14:39
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Paslode has a battery powered framing nail gun. I use this all the time.
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soundandfurycabin
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 14:41
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Tom, any estimate on how long it took to screw down your roof sheathing, vs nail gunning it?
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adakseabee
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 16:29 - Edited by: adakseabee
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I use both a variety of hammers to drive nails of all sizes and types and a 28v Milwaukee 1/2" Hammer Drill for driving screws. That Hammer Drill is a bit hefty with its huge battery, but it is up to any task I put it to. I use nails for shear strength and screws for resistance against tension pulling framing members apart. I use my compressor to apply staples. A palm nailer (compressor operated) can come in handy at times in tight spaces where it is difficult to swing a hammer. As I am retired, I like taking my time doing things that most folks would consider the "hard" way, but to me is more satisfying with the extra physical effort required.
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Martian
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 17:16
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Quoting: soundandfurycabin Tom, any estimate on how long it took to screw down your roof sheathing, vs nail gunning it
For sheathing, I used 2" screws. Each screw took about 4-6 secs. There were 100's of them. It's quicker to shoot nails, no doubt about it, but I don't have any that are too deep or sticking up.
What I really like about screws, besides what I said above, is when I get a crooked stud, I can run a screw in at an angle and take some, if not all, of the twist out of it.
Tom
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davestreck
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 20:36
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So, I'll go the opposite way of most of the previous posts.
I hand-nailed my whole cabin. Not because I don't particularly like nail guns, but because I didn't have a compressor/genny available for the build. Its not as bad as it sounds. Sure, you feel it in your shoulders and arms at night, but it isn't too bad. A generation ago everyone did it that way.
If I had to do it over again, I'm not sure which way I'd go. There is something peaceful and simple about not hearing the genny run constantly and the compressor kick on every few minutes. Just "thwack, thwack, thwack" (a few thousand times a day). And I hate the way that some framing nails sometimes barely set full depth (requiring a whack with the framing hammer) and on the next shot punch a half inch into the siding. I end up fiddling with the air pressure so much it seems counter-productive. A professional framer most likely has these things dialed-in better, but most cabin builders are amateurs.
More importantly, a good framing hammer (and you should definitely buy a good one) will cost you $40-$50 . Thats it for tool expenses. Carry it in the loop of your Carhartts with a pouch of nails and you're equipped to frame an entire house. Humping an air line up a 30' extension ladder sucks!
I'm not a professional builder, but my cousin the contractor uses framing nailers for all his house framing, and loves them, but still insists that all temporary bracing, scaffolding, site-built ladders, etc. be assembled with hand driven nails only. He trusts air-driven fasteners only so far.
On the other hand, being able to hold a piece of siding up with one hand and "pop-pop" it into place with the other definitely has its advantages, especially when working alone. And getting a nail into an odd corner is a PITA with a hammer, while a nail gun will fire that baby at just about any angle you can point the gun.
All-in-all, for small cabins built in out-of-the-way places by amateur builders with limited budgets, invest in a good framing hammer and spend the money you saved on compressors and nail guns for the other things.
Just my opinion.
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BlaineHill
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 21:32
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I have matched a 1.3 HP compressor to a 3500W continuous/ 4000W peak generator. It worked great in warm weather, but in the cold I can not run the set-up with an extension cord between the generator and compressor. I guess I am really on the edge with this set-up.
I used an air framing nailer for the framing, but that was a very small part of the process. I have really benefited from the ability to have air for the roofing nailer for the shingles, air for the narrow crown stapler to install thousands of square feet of 1x8 T&G, and air for the flooring stapler. You should consider all of the air tools you might use.
I am months ahead of where I would be because of the ability to have air tools on-site.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 21:53
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A very handy air powered nailer is a good brand of Palm Nailer. Not HF, but a good one. They can drive virtually any nail, one at a time, in places you can not swing a regular hammer or fit the normal stick or coil air nailer.
And the holding work with one hand while holding the sir nailer is where you can readily get ypurself into trouble. If the nailer drives the first and jumps doing a second... it can be in your hand. And like Tom indicated, a nail can be turned by a knot or heavy grain and come out the side into your hand that was holding the work. They definitely deserve some respect. But they are so handy.
..... women used to sew all garments by hand too... how many would want to give up their sewing machines?
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spicyacres
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 22:02
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Thanks for everyone's comments, I'm learning alot from all the expertise and experience on this forum.
I'm still thinking of going the old-school route only because my overall plan is to become as self sufficient as possible, hence the dream of an off-the-grid cabin in the first place. I'll use the power tools I currently own - love my Dewalt circular saw! - and while I can, but I can't be accumulating new power-hungry tools if my future is going to be powered by a couple of solar panels and a small wind turbine.
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davestreck
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2012 23:36
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Quoting: MtnDon And the holding work with one hand while holding the sir nailer is where you can readily get ypurself into trouble. If the nailer drives the first and jumps doing a second... it can be in your hand. And like Tom indicated, a nail can be turned by a knot or heavy grain and come out the side into your hand that was holding the work.
Absolutely. Framing nailers can do some serious damage in unskilled hands (that "double-pop" freaks me out every time!). And while they are undoubted timesavers for professional framers who's livings depend on productivity, I can't see recommending one to a first-time builder who just wants to build a small cabin. Why invest in expensive single-use tools for a one-time project?
My advice is to use a hammer. You'll build some upper body strength and acquire a skill that will serve you well in every future building project you decide to undertake. And that hammer will never wear out. Your grandkids may well use it to build their own cabins.
But again, just my opinion. YMMV.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2012 10:44
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Screw that hand banging. Small jobs, fine, air nailer is the only way to go. I bought the 6 gallon Poreter Cable unit from Home Depot (sorry squidlips) and every type of nailer known to man from brads to framing and everything in between. You will throw rocks at your framing hammer after you air nail it. Its easier on your arms, muscles, shoulders, lots of hand banging can actually create health issues, but you are just building a smallc abin, not framing for 20+ yrs, its up to you. But it all goes so much faster with air.
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soundandfurycabin
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2012 16:02 - Edited by: soundandfurycabin
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Quoting: Martian Each screw took about 4-6 secs
I figure about 700 fasteners in the roof of my small cabin. At ~5 seconds each, that's only an hour of fastening time. It would take me 15 minutes to drag the generator, fuel, compressor, nail gun and hose from their hiding places in the woods, and another 15 to put it all back. A screw gun is also a lot easier to handle than a 50' air hose. Thanks Tom, you've helped me make my choice.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2012 17:51
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Just be sure to use structural rated screws like he did. No deck screws for holding important structural parts together.
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Martian
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2012 18:19 - Edited by: Martian
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Quoting: soundandfurycabin I figure about 700 fasteners in the roof of my small cabin. At ~5 seconds each, that's only an hour of fastening time. It would take me 15 minutes to drag the generator, fuel, compressor, nail gun and hose from their hiding places in the woods, and another 15 to put it all back. A screw gun is also a lot easier to handle than a 50' air hose. Thanks Tom, you've helped me make my choice
If your putting on sheathing, set a couple of screws before lifting the bottom panels into place. All you have to do then is run them in to hold it up. Take your hammer and set the rest of the screws in the panel deep enough to hold them. Then you can go from one to the other really fast and don't have to grab from your pouch or wait for them to penetrate the surface. Use torx heads and a screw boss; torx make it really easy, and with the screw boss, you don't get metal splinters in your finger tips.
MtnDon is right.....use construction grade screws. I paid around $9/lb for them.
I love screwing!
Tom
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soundandfurycabin
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2012 18:27 - Edited by: soundandfurycabin
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Quoting: MtnDon Just be sure to use structural rated screws
Well duh, obviously I'm not going to use drywall screws. The building code specifies standards for fasteners, both nails and screws, just as it does for just about every other building component.
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2012 18:38
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picked another 50 ft RUBBER Goodyear air hose made in the US of A today brand new for 10 bucks---i now have 90 bucks in my air tools TOTAL!!!!
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2012 19:51 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: soundandfurycabin Well duh, obviously I'm not going to use drywall screws
I'm sorry if you feel slighted by my comment. In my experience it is not obvious to everyone. I have seen drywall and deck screws used to secure (?) things like 2x's used in structural applications and to fasten structural sheathing to framing. So I am glad you are wiser than those folks were. In fact last weekend the very nice guy who volunteered to help me with some remodeling here at home, came with his own supply of drywall screws. The problem was we were not doing drywall, we were doing some framing and exterior sheathing.
The code I am quite familiar with, the IRC has numerous tables for connections made with nails or staples for everything structural. See Table R602.3(1) for an example. I have never seen screws listed. Maybe I've missed that; if so I would like a reference.
There are screws that have been accepted, have been tested and proven suitable for structural purposes. The thing is they are the exception, rather then the rule. FastenMaster is one of the makers with approved screws. Simpson has some for use with some of their products. There are others too. Mostly pricey compared to nails. I use them at times, such as a recent project installing rigid foam over siding using furring strips over the foam sheets. Lap siding to be nailed to the furring strips.
Lag screws, are still listed as approved for purposes such as ledger boards, and that is dependent upon sufficient thread ed penetration Through bolting and washers is preferred by many engineers and by codes in some seismic zones.
My main purpose in making mention of the limitations of common drywall and deck screws was obviously aimed at readers of this topic who are not as thoughtful nor as intelligent as you.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2012 23:00 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Approved screws usually have a head marking so inspectors can tell the size, including the length, of the screw without having to remove one or two.
FastenMaster Link
UFO Ballistic NailScrew®
install w/special air nailer and they can be removed by unscrewing them
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Icebear
Member
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2012 00:37
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Paslode Impulse Framing gun, battery and gas canister. No compressor, no cord, brilliant.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2012 01:45
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Quoting: turkeyhunter picked another 50 ft RUBBER Goodyear air hose made in the US of A today brand new for 10 bucks---i now have 90 bucks in my air tools TOTAL!!!!
Doing better than me. I think I'm well over $1400 or so. :D
framing nailer, brad nailer, crown stapler (Porter Cable), siding nailer, (Senco) roofing nailer (Bostitch, coil) palm nailer mini palm nailer also both Bostitch, 6 gallon pancake Porter Cable, all runs on my Honda EU2000i generator.
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2012 14:48
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Doing better than me. I think I'm well over $1400 or so. :D
i got a 6 gallon porter cable pancake --looks brand new from pawn shop $40
a pass load framer nailer from a yard sale--works great $40
50 ft NEW rubber air hose $10
and pass load finsher nailer gave to me by a friend
mine runs off a 200 amp--elect @ cabin ;-D
pawn shops ( i have a friend who wons one) and yard sales are your friend!!!!
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newbieUP
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2012 08:01
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I built my entire 12x18 cabin using hammer and nails. It's hard work, but was very satisfying. I did run a generator for using the miter and circular saw.
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spicyacres
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2012 10:02
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Just when I was ready to go at it old-school, Canadian Tire has a sale on air compressors, a 3gal for $60 incl. 25ft hose. And my construction buddy said he'd donate a spare nailer to my cause, so that seals the deal.
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