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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 3 Sep 2014 21:07
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I built using full footing/stem wall, I'm no daddy warbucks, am I??? What is this class envy thing anyway? The reason I used full footing/stemwall was much easier. A dig out with a cat blade, down 24", then concrete guy set it all up, when I arrived, it was ready to build on.
But the biggest factor, no varmints are able to get into it like they do on the underside of the post/pier type. The integrity is just another factor. So far,m varmint free!
In my state, the only difference between a home and a cabin is how long you stay there each year.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 3 Sep 2014 21:11 - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: Mainiac U live there full time,its not a cabin.Its a home.Homes are different than a 16 by 10 cabin.
Exactly and that was my point. Some folks end up living full time in something started as a part time use cabin. That is where one can regret their initial choice.
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Quoting: Mainiac You built on piers because...of $$$$? Now you regret it?
Regret; that is what I said. I have no serious complaints, but I do know more now than I did 7 - 8 years ago and I know that a full perimeter foundation would be very likely to last longer than piers / beams. ... I was misinformed about the suitability of piers and beam. Fortunately my terrain is "probably okay" according to a structural engineer I met after the build was complete. However, he added that he would never sign official documents to that effect.
Anyhow you don't have to agree with me. I raise the point whenever P&B comes up as a foundation choice as many folks have no idea of the forces that can come into play, just as I was.
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Pole building is very different from building on piers and beams. Better. When done right they offer great lateral stiffness and stability. That is something a typical pier / beam foundation can not provide.
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Quoting: Mainiac MD says he has slip formed
I never said that here; you have me confused with someone with years more experience than I, although I have helped a friend with some of his slip forming on a pumicecrete build.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2014 09:03
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Quoting: Mainiac Toyota Tech Class envy? Spoken like a real GOP voter. A 24 inch perimeter wall, probably it comes out of the ground so you can grade up to it, isnt that expensive,I agree.It is a good option.Better than posts.
$3300 for the total cost, start to finish. And zero labor on my part. I just showed up with my lumber pkg, was all done, cured and in place, I went right to building. Hardly expensive in my opinion for a superior foundation that will outlive me and no repairs on it down the road and the fact I have almost 3 feet of secure dry storage under the floor also is another added bonus.
Signed, "big daddy warbucks" 
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2014 20:17
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Stemwall is 2 feet, not sure how thick the footing, suspect 8" min. Backfilled with about 8" of stemwall showing, just above the vents. Underside have a layer of gravel, then a black vapor barrier. Low area has a drain tile added for later if there was ever a water leak from plumbing. Very dry area, 300+ days of sunshine a year, but does get cold. Was all signed off my the inspector, met code. No drain tile used around perimeter at all, just back filled.
I did not install outside crawl access, so I could have extra storage. I use a hatch door in the floor just inside the entry door.
56 feet total. I did the foundation back in 2008.
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Tarmetto
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2014 20:20
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I like the hatch door idea!
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2014 20:28
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Quoting: Tarmetto I like the hatch door idea!
I wanted secure storage, but it also keep assessors and inspectors from poking under there looking for options like water, electrical, gas. 
But security (secure storage) was my main reason.
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Tarmetto
Member
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2014 20:53
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Ooooh! I really like they way you did that! I'll steal that idea if you don't mind.
I also thought about building a closet around a gun safe.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2014 21:42
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Quoting: Mainiac DOn P You slip formed your foundation? Did U use the Nearing- Flagg Method? How did it work out? How tall is your shop wall? I wondered about that conc. method since usually its supposed to be cast in one pour.Does it bond well?
It's about 4' tall above the footing, worked fine. I'm not aware of anything in the codebook saying a foundation needs to be cast in one pour. Think about blocks, bricks or stone foundations, different masonry units created and bonded at different times and it works fine. My blocks were simply large concrete blocks. I extended rebar out of the forms to tie the next pour to the existing one. I'm getting ready to do that on an 8' basement wall and discussed it with an engineer. With the rebar he had no qualms. I've also use precast concrete foundation wall panels that are crane set and bolted together. Highway retaining and sound walls are frequently precast in sections and assembled on site. A pier type foundation is specifically mentioned in the codebook, engineer required.
You've been referring to vertical load and problems, and that is one concern with piers, but the main thing that concerns me and the engineers I've spoken with is the lack of lateral resistance. A house has braced walls connected to floor and roof diaphragms... a rigid box when built right. The code and good practice is that the foundation is also capable of resisting those lateral loads as well as the braced walls above them. A home brewed pier doesn't do that. Basically it's the same as the "soft story" problem that caused so many collapses in California and is the cause of many retrofits.
To go back into the codebook a little deeper, accessory buildings of small size are typically exempt from requiring a foundation, if the finish floor is no more than 18" above grade, if the eaves are lower than 10' and if it is tied down securely (yup they're worried about lateral forces). At that floor height the floor needs to be treated. That is for a non habitable structure. There is no exemption for a habitable structure and for good reason.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2014 23:10 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: Tarmetto Ooooh! I really like they way you did that! I'll steal that idea if you don't mind. I also thought about building a closet around a gun safe.
This forum is all about sharing ideas with others, I'd be honored to have my idea replicated. . Hey, you know you can buy just a "safe door" and make your own vault with concrete, build around it, hide is inside a closet. Concrete sides will be hidden as part of the wall. Pour a pad underneath it to support the weight.
PS, NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member here. 
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Tarmetto
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# Posted: 5 Sep 2014 07:18
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech This forum is all about sharing ideas with others, I'd be honored to have my idea replicated. . Hey, you know you can buy just a "safe door" and make your own vault with concrete, build around it, hide is inside a closet. Concrete sides will be hidden as part of the wall. Pour a pad underneath it to support the weight. PS, NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member here.
I picked up a vault door from our local Habitat store a few years ago for $250!....never got around to using it, sold it for $1800. I swear if I ever build another basement home...it'll have a concrete vault.
PS, Admin at CSC (carolinashootersclub.com), FFL dealer, NRA member, Certified, card carrying, Ruger NUT! Tax stamps on 3 class III "toys". Bought my 2 grandsons their 1st Rugers while they were still in the womb (limited edition Birdshead convertibles) and they both got lifetime hunting/fishing licenses for their 1st birthday from Pawpaw and Nana...LOL!
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Mainiac
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# Posted: 5 Sep 2014 07:37
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Toyota TECh
How cold does it get? Does the ground freeze?.Two feet seems shallow to me.But its inpsected so...
Fifty six feet of two foot wall isnt that cheap,but its a good option ,better than posts.In the long run it is cheap.
It depends on the area you live in and local pricing of COnc and contractors labor.
WE always build with exterior and interior drains.I have a wet area near the house and its above the level of my cellar. Ground water is high here.My cellar is dusty dry.
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 5 Sep 2014 08:59
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Quoting: Tarmetto PS, Admin at CSC (carolinashootersclub.com), FFL dealer, NRA member, Certified, card carrying, Ruger NUT! Tax stamps on 3 class III "toys". Bought my 2 grandsons their 1st Rugers while they were still in the womb (limited edition Birdshead convertibles) and they both got lifetime hunting/fishing licenses for their 1st birthday from Pawpaw and Nana...LOL!
Tarmetto, too bad we werent neighbors, we'd get along great. We are on the same page.
I'm also a lifetime member of a local sportsmans club. 
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 5 Sep 2014 09:04
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Maniac, we dont really have a water table anywhere near the surface. It does get cold. Very dry area. Stemwall is I think 8" wide also. The inside drain was just for a major plumbing failure to allow it to drain off instead of remaining pooled under the cabin. I have no water to the cabin at all (dry) and not sure if I ever will. But its all in place.
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Tarmetto
Member
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# Posted: 5 Sep 2014 09:21
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Tarmetto, too bad we werent neighbors, we'd get along great. We are on the same page. I'm also a lifetime member of a local sportsmans club.
You wouldn't happen to be a ham radio operator too would ya?
The wife and I have a little side business called TOP Trading Post...firearms, ammo, reloading, survival gear, ham radio gear, ect.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 5 Sep 2014 09:32
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The only structure I am aware of that specs that the concrete must be in a continuous pour are containment structures built to surround nuclear reactors. At least that was how some were built 40 years ago when a friend was a budding structural engineer working in that field. I forget the details but it was a variation on slip forming and not letting the concrete interface between lifts become dry. Talk about careful timing and just in time delivery.
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 5 Sep 2014 14:16
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Quoting: Tarmetto You wouldn't happen to be a ham radio operator too would ya?
Funny you mention that, yes amateur extra class, ARRL lifetime member, QRZ lifetime member, and prepper light. Big gennie wired into the house, back up everything. I'll check out your site.
I have a full reloading set up, RCBS system.
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Tarmetto
Member
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# Posted: 5 Sep 2014 15:19
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Funny you mention that, yes amateur extra class
Just a Tech here, licensed last year.
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Legendstormcrow
Member
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# Posted: 6 Sep 2014 19:24
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Well this is all good information. Didn't know a foundation could be that cheap. Also I never really thought about not having external access to the crawlspace but that idea is great. I think I'll have mine larger though so I can stash a Christmas tree down there. I think I want to have sliding panels that hide my guns. I still need to get a couple of good hand guns. 
Going back to the foundation thing though. The land I'm building on has a history of being water logged and that is why the original house failed. Conversely it until just recently has been dry around here to the extreme.
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 6 Sep 2014 23:08
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Quoting: Legendstormcrow Also I never really thought about not having external access to the crawlspace but that idea is great
Just make sure you put it (crawlspace door) somewhere inside where you can put in long items, like a ladder etc. Mine is just inside the front door, so its in the front and I have the door open, I can install a long item, as long as the foundation allows, in this case, better than 12 feet long. Keep this in mind when location your trap door. Mine is hidden under a rug that reads welcome to our cabin.
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cabin_pal
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# Posted: 7 Sep 2014 07:41
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Very interesting discussion, here. Wish I'd read it sooner, as I'm 3/4's done building a post & beam foundation for a small 10'x12' cabin at a very remote location where few concrete trucks would dare venture. Got tired of tent camping, when you can't even stand-up to change clothes; so this little cabin was to be a step-up in camping comfort for me. I'll proceed with the build, as the structure should still last quite a while, as designed. On my 10 acres stands yet a 14'x18' cabin built 35 years ago on a post and beam foundation. The darn thing -- over-run long ago by pack rats, thus making it uninhabitable, anyway -- refuses to fall down on its own (though it is tilting considerably, now, and may come down with the next heavy snow load). Point is, even a poorly designed and laid-out post and beam structure can last a long time. The P&B foundation I'm building now is a heck of a lot more carefully envisioned and implemented than the one which has supported that old, tilting cabin. The new, little cabin should keep me safely out of the elements while I plan and eventually construct the larger cottage, on a full perimeter foundation, I'll be able to pass on as a legacy to my heirs. The little cabin may still be standing, then, too; perhaps to be used as a writing or art studio. For bigger structures, I think the full, conventional foundation is clearly the way to go. For little hovels, like the one I'm presently building, I think it'd be overkill.
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walthall
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2014 09:05
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Hi Guys, Great thread. I'm toying with the idea of buying a little piece of land in the mountains and building a small cottage. Planning on doing a lot of the work myself. After reading this thread, I'm thinking to get a concrete guy out there and at least get a quote. Thanks for the tips!
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