Small Cabin

# Posted: 14 May 2023 23:46 - Edited by: travellerw
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech

Traveller, no sure how long you been out of the biz, the zinc phased out when roller tappets showed up vs the flat tappet cams where the zinc is critical. Our Honda gennies have flat tappet cams.

We shut the business down last year after 12 years in business.The last 4 years was mostly just service work with limited unit sales. So we supported units 12 years old units that were broke-in with just off the shelf automotive stuff. We had the exact same cams in our engines (Honda clones). We never looked at zinc content and usually bought what we could get at Gregg Distributors (a Canadian thing), Walmart or Canadian tire. Our customers grabbed whatever they go the cheapest.. and those were still our failure numbers.

The motors outlasted the electronics in all the units I have owned (including 2 Hondas on our boat). Ran and broke in with whatever strange brand I could find in the Caribbean!

This has led me down a rabbit hole and its a deep one.. Crazy stuff.. Bob the oil guy forum.. WOW.. People are passionate. I have spend hours reading MSDS and API numbers as well as figuring out who is making what (maybe, it is the internet of course).

Again.. Do what you think will make a difference. It costs almost nothing on these units.

Brettny
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# Posted: 15 May 2023 06:13
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If your looking for a zinc oil..typicaly diesel oils are high in zinc and detergents. 5w40 is my go to oil. Everything else gets 5w30 supertech. I only stock 2 types of motor oil.

# Posted: 15 May 2023 08:34
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I, too, have run over the counter engine oils rated for at least light-duty diesel use. Ive had lots of small engine powered stuff and 30 some 4-stroke motorcycles, most all air cooled. All my stuff gets long life.
As a former mc service tech 'lubrication' was also a special interest, I cant seem to ignore any topic it comes up in, LOL.
Our local Walmart has a section with oil for ATV/UTV; ie, 'off-road use vehicles' and motorcycles (labels say 'suitable for older engines). I suspect they have a higher zinc content but idk.
One thing about using a manufacturers oil in a new unit is that IF there is an oil related failure it Shouldnt Be On You.

ICC
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# Posted: 15 May 2023 09:38 - Edited by: ICC
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Not wanting to open another can of worms, but it seems everything is more complicated than it used to be.

Research has shown that higher detergent levels in engine oil can also strip the zinc and phosphorous that attempts to adhere to highly loaded surfaces such as cam lobes and flat lifters. That is one reason racing engine oils are loaded with zinc and phosphorous and have no detergents at all. FYI, the absence of detergents makes racing oil a bad idea for everyday prolonged use.

My personal opinion that began to take hold about 20-some years ago is that the manufacturer likely knows best and unless one wants to do some research on "why things are the way they are" that is the easiest/best way out of a potential dilemma.

Our small power equipment engines are technically stuck in the 40s. The major difference is that now OHV predominates.

Light aircraft engines are also stuck back in time. Carburetors still abound and oil changes are done every 50 hours or less. Automobile oils used in a piston aircraft engine will void any warranty and probably kill the engine, especially synthetics. And some small aircraft engines still do not have full-flow oil filters.

# Posted: 15 May 2023 11:43
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Many years back I read about a study on piston aircraft engines regarding cold start wear; the cold start was far more 'wearing' than many hours of continuous running. Iirc, there was also mention made that they are running at a pretty steady, and moderate rpm? That is more like a governored small power equipment engine than a utv/mc/car etc. that 'runs through the gears' often.
We also found in the mc industry that going to water cooling added at least 30% to the engine life. The internal components got to live in a much more controlled and comfortable environment.
So, I keep my gen in the shade, in the breeze if possible and in a placement that maximizes the air flow through the unit. And good oil is cheap insurance.

ICC
Member

# Posted: 15 May 2023 17:29 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: gcrank1

the cold start was far more 'wearing' than many hours of continuous running.

Oh yeah! Temperature matters a lot. My Lycoming manual recommends preheating at 20F or lower. I usually use 32 F as my preheat when at home where the preheat uses 'free' solar power. Five to 6 hours, depending on temperatures. Or at home I can heat the hanger and warm the entire aircraft with 'free' wood heat.

An air-cooled aircraft engine is built with much 'looser' clearances than a water cooled car/truck engine because of the very wide range of temperatures. So basically they are designed to consume some oil. That varies with the type of use and number of hours of use. I'm at about 1 qt per 10-12 hours which is good. The usual TBO (time between overhaul) is given as 2000 hours or 12 years. Non-synthetic 20W-60 in summer, 15W-50 in winter.

Quoting: gcrank1

they are running at a pretty steady, and moderate rpm?

There are 2 propeller types, fixed pitch, and variable pitch. Variable pitch allows the propeller to run at its most efficient RPM while the engine speed can be varied to raise or lower the power level. My max is usually 2675 RPM but the cruise is lower.

ICC
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# Posted: 15 May 2023 17:34
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I would like to see liquid cooled aviation engines. After all I have not had a water leak in any gas or diesel car, truck, or machinery in a number of decades. Not like back in the 60's when bursting hoses hoses was commonplace unless one did preventative replacements on a schedule. My Tacoma with almost 330,000 miles has never leaked a drop of coolant. Or oil for that matter

# Posted: 16 May 2023 15:29
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Quoting: ICC

I would like to see liquid cooled aviation engines

P51 Mustang, man, what a sexy aircraft, even today.

# Posted: 16 May 2023 16:43
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Pilot friend, retired Army CW5, rated for fixed wing and rotary aircraft, said in his whole career of flying his ride in a P51 was the most exiting flight he had.

ICC
Member

# Posted: 16 May 2023 17:18 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech

P51 Mustang, man, what a sexy aircraft, even today.

Yep. But at cruise speed, it burns about 8x as much fuel as my Bearhawk.

OK, it does cruise 2X as fast as the Bearhawk.

But if I didn't have to pay the fuel bill it surely would be a blast.

ICC
Member

# Posted: 16 May 2023 17:44
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12.5 gallons of engine oil vs 6-8 qts

scott100
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# Posted: 19 May 2023 08:54 - Edited by: scott100
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I have a pair of Honda 2200i generators and they got mobil 1 EP in them from the get go. Honda recommends a first oil change at 20 hrs and then every 100 hrs from then on, FWIW. No specific break in procedure noted in manual. I'm actually more particular with the fuel I put in them. All my equipment like chainsaws, generators and the like get non ethanol. Haven't had any carb issues since I went to that, but lots before the switch.

# Posted: 19 May 2023 12:51
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Quoting: scott100

All my equipment like chainsaws, generators and the like get non ethanol. Haven't had any carb issues since I went to that, but lots before the switch.

Unfortunately non ethanol fuel isn't available everywhere. Around here only avgas or "TruFuel" is non eth.
I know people that wash the ethanol out (youtube has many videos). Too much work for me. As long as the tank is sealed up and the carb is drained, no issues. Even after a long sitting period!

# Posted: 19 May 2023 20:06 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: travellerw

Unfortunately non ethanol fuel isn't available everywhere. Around here only avgas or "TruFuel" is non eth.

Have you tried looking at pure-gas.org

ICC
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# Posted: 19 May 2023 20:49 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech

pure-gas.org

Very few stations listed in Canada. Only 1 in western Canada

# Posted: 20 May 2023 00:08
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Quoting: ICC

Very few stations listed in Canada. Only 1 in western Canada

Yup.. Pretty much unobtainium here..

# Posted: 20 May 2023 08:46
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Ive watched a couple of vids about separating the eth-blend, mostly it is just letting it sit in a clear container and pumpin/siphoning off the good gas at the top. Not hard, a little fuzty and takes some thinking ahead.
Im kinda waiting for the 'right container' to come along to give this a go but we can still get non-eth here so Im not very motivated (with everything else we have to do).

optimistic
Member

# Posted: 20 May 2023 15:03
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I did the recommended break in you guys said. Nice having the app that tracks hours running for maintenance. With my new system the honda runs half as much.

I bought a AC200MAX bluetti. During the day it feeds the cabin - chest freezer conversion, toilet fan, lights, ductless as, rv punp, and so on. I plug it around 7am and disconnect around 830pm and it usually still have 30-40% left. I then crank the honda and charge battery over night. Works great for me.

# Posted: 20 May 2023 16:17
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Quoting: ICC

Very few stations listed in Canada. Only 1 in western Canada

With all those lakes, look for a Marina, as you mentioned, small airport or some place that sells fuel for farmers like Cenex etc.

# Posted: 21 May 2023 21:24
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech

With all those lakes, look for a Marina, as you mentioned, small airport or some place that sells fuel for farmers like Cenex etc.

Farm fuel here in the prairies is 10% eth.. Has been for years.. Marina's use the same thing (although you may be thinking Manitoba or East for lakes.). Actually, down in the US it pretty similar, Finding non eth fuel in Key West was near impossible, and that was 7 years ago.

Airport for sure if you want 100LL, but its damn expensive and they usually won't sell it to you without a license.

We have been dealing with 10% eth here since the late 90s. Just a fact of life.

ICC
Member

# Posted: 21 May 2023 22:00 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: travellerw

Airport for sure if you want 100LL, but its damn expensive

That is for sure. US$6.10 to US$7.70 a US gallon in my area. It was about $1, or more, a gallon cheaper in Mexico over the winter. I haven't bought 100LL in Canada since 2020. Compared to the US it was more costly then; I assume no changes since.

I have never tried to buy 100LL without having an aircraft with me

and have never had a problem here in the US or Canada. Mexico is another matter.

# Posted: 21 May 2023 22:29
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Now Im wondering if we should be shaking our filled gas cans before pouring into a small engine gas tank if we are using (by choice or necessity) eth-blend.
If we dont the top pours may be fine but gas from the bottom settlin's may be poor; ie, eth and moisture absorbed? Well mixed it would be in proper proportion to the gas but settled out we could be heavy on contamination?

Brettny
Member

# Posted: 22 May 2023 05:57
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This was the fuel I drained out of a new to me snowmobile this past winter. The machine actualy ran because the pickup wasn't at the bottom. I did pour off the top and burn that in a mower. So just because theres water in fuel dosnt make it a total loss.

I have had alot of E10-15 issues before so only buy E0 for the very small engines.

20230408_212815.jpg

# Posted: 22 May 2023 08:46
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A good way to separate water from fuel is to use a lady's nylon over the funnel, pour fuel through it, gas passes, water will be trapped by the nylon. I saw this first hand, otherwise, would of never believed it.

# Posted: 22 May 2023 09:35 - Edited by: gcrank1
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Good tip! I might try 'lining' my old Coleman funnel (for their stoves and lanterns) with a nylon 'sock'. I use it when filling small equip tanks when I have a questionable (ie, not fresh filled) gas can.
The gas prices jacked here this past week by 20c/gal to about $3.50reg eth-blend/$4.60prem non-eth. It always goes up before Mem. Day; sometimes it goes down a bit after then jacks again before Jul.4.
Eventually I will probably set up to 'decant' some eth-blend, Im kinda wired that way......

# Posted: 22 May 2023 11:18
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Like I said above.. Some people here actually wash the Eth out. When I say wash, yup, they mix water with the gas and then let it separate. The water will mix with the Eth and then drop to the bottom. Pour the fuel off and you have 0 Eth fuel.

It works, but is just too much work for me.

Ptomaine
Member

# Posted: 25 May 2023 00:02
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Reading this thread makes me happy I live in an area where not only is non-ethanol premium fuel available at every. Gas station, I can go to Fleet Farm and buy non-ethanol mid grade. This saves me 50 cents a gallon over the premium. I am still pissed off that the local Kwik Trip replaced their 87 octain non-ethanol fuel with an off road diesel fuel.

FishHog
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# Posted: 25 May 2023 07:57
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech

A good way to separate water from fuel is to use a lady's nylon over the funnel, pour fuel through it, gas passes, water will be trapped by the nylon. I saw this first hand, otherwise, would of never believed it.

That works great until there is also ethanol in the mix and then it no longer works at all. The solvent (alchohol) changes the surface tension of the water and it passes right through. Same with those water separating fuel filters.

jsahara24
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# Posted: 25 May 2023 09:07
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In PA where I live and NY where my cabin is we have multiple options to buy ethanol free fuel thankfully. You pay for it similar to premium fuel prices, but for the small equipment and my backup generator that mostly sits I do use it.

For my lawnmower, atv, etc that I use on a consistent basis I don't think its necessary. My Stihl chainsaw manual said to only use 91 octane eth-free gasoline....