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TNCabin
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# Posted: 24 Jul 2022 22:24
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Hi!
I'm in the planning stages of building a cabin on my property, looking at shooting for roughly a 30x30 in size. I've built/added on to a bunch of pole barn style workshops/garages/barns over the last few years and really like the overall simplicity in their design and the ability for one person to do much of the work themselves (though a extra set of hands never hurts lol!).
I've been clearing a section on my property and have gone back and forth on how I want to tackle the building itself. I was originally thinking of using 6x6 posts to frame the roof (and attach the siding) and then using concrete piers (sono tubes) to mount the floor itself to. My main issue with this (and similar designs) is post rot. I've pulled 6x6 posts out of barns there were rotted away after 20 years and some that looked fairly new that were over 25 years old; but regardless if they last 10 years or nearly 50 years it would be nearly impossible to replace the posts in this design compared to a completely open barn.
I've started looking at possibly using sono tubes/concrete piers with 6x6 posts but am confused on the connection point between the post and the pier itself. I've seen a wet set connector (permacolumn, I think?) that is made for 6x6 poles (and appear to be structurally made for what I'm doing) but they seem to run $100+ a piece and that is not in the budget for this build. Are there any other affordable options for connecting a 6x6 post to a concrete pier to use for the wall/roof framing? I'm open to other options/opinions and appreciate anyone's insight and experience. I was also wondering if anyone could give me a recommendation on sono tube sizing? They appear to be much more expensive now (~$15 for a 8in one) and don't want to have to spend more than I have to for a cardboard tube 
Additional info:
I'm located in rural middle TN and don't have to worry about code enforcement in anyway, but I do want to do it 'right' so that the cabin will last. My soil is mostly clay, with few rocks from what I've seen so far. I plan on running electricity and water to this, its going to be a homestead like cabin/structure that I plan on living in for the next few years.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2022 05:16
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Pole barns make for prety crappy buildings if you want to insulate and heat/cool them. They almost always rely on wood in concrete. Also anything less than 12in sono tubes really have no business being used in a building. 8in tubes would be for a mail box to me.
30' wide is going to be the issue with making your floor...unless your doing slab on grade? If you are doing slab on grade why not just stick frame the building? I dont really know what your frost depth is in TN but you can pour a footing and build a concrete frost wall on it then pour your concrete floor.
Suspended wood floors can get tough past 20' wide because the need for a 4th girter and a whole other set of sono tube piers.
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TNCabin
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2022 09:16 - Edited by: TNCabin
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My impatience is what makes me love pole barn style buildings, lol. Sometimes lining my schedule up with others who can help is a pain, but at the same time I hate the idea of spending the time and money on a building will be nearly impossible to fix 15-20 years down the line when a pole rots out
Our frost line is 12inches here, I was hoping to have a decent amount of crawl space area under the building for any work down the line (not a big fan of tight spaces) and was going to shoot for a little over 2 foot down with the sono tubes, give or take. I'm not against stick framing, and it seems that will end up being the only real way to go since I don't want to stick posts in concrete.
Would 12inch sono tubes be adequate to base the suspended wood flooring and roof framing to? I've helped a friend fill sono tubes in the past, but I haven't done much research into them yet. I was shocked at the prices, I could have swore they used to be less than half of what they are now lol
Small edit*
I've been leaning towards sono tubes due to location. I don't think I concrete truck could get here without a lot of road work on my part. My tractor and 4x4 truck struggle depending on the day lol
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ICC
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2022 15:15
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Quoting: TNCabin My tractor and 4x4 truck struggle depending on the day
Maybe road work should come before the construction of a building should come first? My experience has been that roads and driveways can deteriorate with use and weather influences and seldom get easier to use if left to age without care.
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ICC
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2022 15:22 - Edited by: ICC
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As for a pole barn as a habitable building, I would not go that route.
You mentioned clay; that is unfortunate. In your area what is the foundation type that is used for most homes that are being built as full-time residences? Drilled piers? Slab on grade? ??? Piers need to be deep not just for frost reasons but for stability. A pier in soil that has high moisture content has little lateral resistance to pier movement.
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ICC
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2022 15:24
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Be sure to consider what happens when it rains. Where does the water flow? Regrade as necessary to keep the water away from the building. Install gutters and direct rain water well away.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2022 16:39
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The only way Id do a modified 'pole building' as a cabin is if I thought maybe someday Id build a proper house and the original cabin could become the outbuilding (garage, toolshed, workshop).
As a variation in thinking consider this (Ive seen it done):
An actual pole building with big doors on each end but offset to one side of the width.
On that side was a shed roof extension with decks inside and out, patio doors and more big windows ran along that side.
The motorhome or trailer was pulled straight in, tight to the inner deck. still plenty of storage space for toolroom, workshop, and garage space inside.
Step out of the trailer, cross the inner deck, open the patio door and step out to the outer deck for your morning cuppa and a view. If weather is poor you have the inner 'living room' deck with view through the patio doors and windows.
Nice big trailers and motorhomes are almost dirt cheap here compared to building.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2022 16:49
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Why 30' wide? Past 20'-24' and you start to need another girter and a whole other set of sono tubes.
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ICC
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2022 17:16
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Quoting: gcrank1 trailers and motorhomes are almost dirt cheap
...and they are no better than what dirt cheap implies. American RV's are cheap POS, IMO. Not built to last.
That is why my RV began life as an MCI motorcoach
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2022 17:29
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Yes, I agree. But if they arent being hauled around, just sitting inside a pole building and used as the inside living quarters they will last long.
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spencerin
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# Posted: 26 Jul 2022 01:41
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If you're stuck on pole building construction, they make sleeves you can wrap around the posts, or place the posts into, before putting the posts in bare earth or concrete, which will keep moisture off the wood and likely add decades to the longevity of the posts. Seems to me like this would be a good solution for you.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 26 Jul 2022 04:54
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Quoting: ICC American RV's are cheap POS
Your not lieing. It's nearly impossible to find a 15yr old unit that dosnt have soft floors and walls from leaks. Anything else they want well over the value.
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TNCabin
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# Posted: 26 Jul 2022 09:36
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Quoting: ICC Maybe road work should come before the construction of a building should come first? My experience has been that roads and driveways can deteriorate with use and weather influences and seldom get easier to use if left to age without care.
I had a decent, albeit dirt only, road up to the where I want to put the cabin but the month worth of rain over a weekish (after nearly a month of little to no rain) washed it out bad and the need to get in/out and having to use 4WD made it even worse. Its on my list of things to do over the next few months; I was just hoping to get started on building this cabin while working on that and other projects (101 projects going, and never enough time to do them all lol)
Quoting: ICC You mentioned clay; that is unfortunate. In your area what is the foundation type that is used for most homes that are being built as full-time residences? Drilled piers? Slab on grade? ??? Piers need to be deep not just for frost reasons but for stability. A pier in soil that has high moisture content has little lateral resistance to pier movement.
Most homes around me have basements (though many are older, if that matters) or are trailer homes. Would digging the piers down deeper (I think the 12inch ones at HD are 48inches long) help offset this issue?
Quoting: ICC Be sure to consider what happens when it rains. Where does the water flow? Regrade as necessary to keep the water away from the building. Install gutters and direct rain water well away.
One of the benefits from the crap ton of rain from the last week has been seeing how water drains/pools on my property. The building site seems to have good drainage with no settling water, but I have found a few places farther down my property that I may have to rethink my workshop (a down the line project) because the water pools there badly
Quoting: gcrank1 The only way Id do a modified 'pole building' as a cabin is if I thought maybe someday Id build a proper house and the original cabin could become the outbuilding (garage, toolshed, workshop). As a variation in thinking consider this (Ive seen it done): An actual pole building with big doors on each end but offset to one side of the width. On that side was a shed roof extension with decks inside and out, patio doors and more big windows ran along that side. The motorhome or trailer was pulled straight in, tight to the inner deck. still plenty of storage space for toolroom, workshop, and garage space inside. Step out of the trailer, cross the inner deck, open the patio door and step out to the outer deck for your morning cuppa and a view. If weather is poor you have the inner 'living room' deck with view through the patio doors and windows.
I've seen a few setups like this in the area; if I had camper of some sort already I would probably do something like this. My main fear is, with crappy luck, a post will rot out in under 10 years and make the entire building a tear down. =/
Quoting: Brettny Why 30' wide? Past 20'-24' and you start to need another girter and a whole other set of sono tubes.
I'm honestly not super set on 30x30. I just threw down several different markers and mocked up in my head and on paper what each would look like lol
Quoting: spencerin If you're stuck on pole building construction, they make sleeves you can wrap around the posts, or place the posts into, before putting the posts in bare earth or concrete, which will keep moisture off the wood and likely add decades to the longevity of the posts. Seems to me like this would be a good solution for you.
I hadn't heard of these before - is there any sort of preferred brand out there? I could see this being a solution if they work well. This cabin/building isn't meant to be my 'forever home', by no means, but I also don't want the worrying fear that it'll rot out in a decade (I've seen posts that where 20+ years old and fine, and I've seen them well under 20 years and sketchy.. my brain always fears the worse lol)
Thanks for the inputs everyone 
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 26 Jul 2022 09:53
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Well, you keep saying it so it is a real problem; you are afraid that after all the expense and work the posts will rot out in 10 to 20 years.
You stop that from happening, either from whatever you do with/to the posts OR you dont use posts.
I can assure you, beyond any question, 10 years will go by quicker than you can imagine. So will 20. Passing of time accelerates as we age.
Do you want to be trying to salvage/rebuild the bottom end of that structure when you are older?
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Brettny
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# Posted: 26 Jul 2022 10:13
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Quoting: TNCabin I'm honestly not super set on 30x30. I just threw down several different markers and mocked up in my head and on paper what each would look like lol
There are free interior layout programs available. Use one of them to figure out how big you really need. You can lay out things like walls, windows, toilets, stairs and even chairs. Do a few drawings and see what one you like.
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spencerin
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# Posted: 26 Jul 2022 11:02
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Post Saver is one brand, Post Protector is another brand, both can be found on Amazon or through big box home improvement stores. Post Saver is a wrap that protects the posts around grade level (which is where most rot occurs as you already know), Post Protector is a sleeve that protects from the bottom of the post to just above grade level.
Or, you can buy some asphalt paint (Gardner-Gibson Black Beauty found at Tractor Supply) and slap a thick coat on the posts and let it dry before setting them in the ground. Probably the cheapest method and will work well, too.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 26 Jul 2022 19:38
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I used Black Jack roofing repair goo on my 4x4 posts at home for the back deck, maybe 25years ago. NO signs of rot, guess I wont really know unless I dig down to inspect?
I used a roundish flatish rock at the bottom of each post hole, dropped in the coated posts (1 day drying time), backfilled with dirt and tamped hard into place, stopped a bit short of grade and made a cement 'cap' with a bit of dome.
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Aklogcabin
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# Posted: 27 Jul 2022 09:39
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Welcome TN. Sounds like you got bit by the bug n have cabin fever. I used cedar utility poles for our cabin. They are doing great. I got mine for a good price as they are replacing some along a new road construction. Get them out of the way.
Cedar has a natural oil in it that resists rot. Will last a long time. Real easy to cut off level. We cut a shoulder into the top to hold the support beams. Good solid floor that doesn't frost heave the pilings. We built a 16x24. And put 3 rows of pilings in. If you can keep the water away by adequate drainage around your pilings and cabin. It's been tested by 7.2 earthquakes and 14' of snowfall.
Good luck n stay positive. You'll read n hear plenty of advice, good n not so much. I can say that this system works very good and we have a solid floor when it's walked on.
We're remote n miles from any roads so have to use snogos to freight our building materials in. Using the cedar poles worked great.
Pilings under cabin
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Side view
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Front
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Heaven to a woodsman
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 27 Jul 2022 14:31
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They make foundation grade pressure treated wood. It has a much higher density of the treatment chemical then what is found in "normal" pressure treated lumber. Foundation grade wood is intended to be in contact with soil for a long, long, time.
Our big box stores don't carry it. I had to go to a "real" lumber yard to get it.
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ICC
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# Posted: 27 Jul 2022 15:17
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NorthRick, 
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 27 Jul 2022 18:19
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And 'coat' it too
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TNCabin
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# Posted: 31 Jul 2022 19:30
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I appreciated everyone's messages and and advice
I spent some time this week researching and roughing up the cost/materials for a 30x30 cabin sitting on (12in) concrete piers and was a little shocked by the prices of a few items (sonotubes and concrete anchors, mostly) that really shot the price up considerably. I am on a budget and am (was  ) willing to pay a bit more/spend more time for a different setup over a pole barn style because I would like for it to be repairable if/when that time comes instead of being a pain/nearly impossible to fix.
Rough idea:
30x30
5 rows of 5 concrete piers (sonotubes @ $25 each)
Concrete anchors (wet set for 6x6 + jbolt for anchor to attach to) @(~)$25 for each pier 
5 beams (made of sandwiched 2x's)
6x6 poles for roof support, sitting directly over the concrete pier
I looked into foundation grade 6x6's and was quoted (~)$250-$275 for a single 16 footer , but that was from Lowes. Is that a comparable price to an actual lumber yard? They said they had to special order it, but IDK.. I usually get rough cut lumber from a local guy for my large builds; I doubt he would have connections for this type of stuff though.
Quoting: Aklogcabin Welcome TN. Sounds like you got bit by the bug n have cabin fever. I used cedar utility poles for our cabin. They are doing great. I got mine for a good price as they are replacing some along a new road construction. Get them out of the way.
I love your cabin - TY for sharing the pictures! I'm a very visual person and am always lurking around for pictures for ideas and to get a better idea how to design stuff!
I hadn't considered a foundation setup like yours, I could possibly take that setup (but with 6x6's and coated with tar as others noted above) and utilize it in a similar way to the concrete pier setup I noted above? It just irks me spending over $1,000 on cardboard tubes and small pieces of flimsy metal lol
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spencerin
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# Posted: 31 Jul 2022 23:06 - Edited by: spencerin
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Not sure how Lowe's quoted you that for a 6" x 6" x 16' as I just looked them up online and they're $59. Menard's also sells them for $66.
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ICC
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# Posted: 31 Jul 2022 23:29 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: spencerin Not sure how Lowe's quoted you that for a 6" x 6" x 16' as I just looked them up online and they're $59
Not foundation grade if you found them on a big box website. At least no bigbox store in the SW. Ground contact, but that is not foundation grade.
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TNCabin
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2022 06:13
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I talked to a manager I know at local Lowes (not sure what kind of manager he is, but he works at the Pro desk thing sometimes) about foundation ground 6x6's and the only thing he could pull up was some that ran in the ball park of $250-$275 a piece and were some sort of special order that wouldn't give him a delivery date at the time.I could never find anything like what he pulled up on their website, but I also knew that price was a no-go for me regardless. The 'regular' pressure treated 6x6's run around ~60, though
The only lumber yards I know of around me are either local small time guys, or are ran by Mennonites. I might try calling around this week, but I have my doubts they'll know how to get this kind of wood
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Brettny
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2022 12:34
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Nothing is cheap today. If your in a rush on a budget..the best thing to do is to hold off on the build completely and save your money. No point in building a crappy building with a poorly constructed foundation.
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Aklogcabin
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2022 13:04 - Edited by: Aklogcabin
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Hang in there n stay positive TN. If you're ground has clay you could probably rent a 2 man post hole digger and it may just drill a nice clean hole. That you can pour the cement into. Build a box to sit on top of the ground over the hole. Set up the boxes level and build on them. Sono tubes haven't been around that long. You may not need them.
If you can some beams cut from a local sawmill, I used 6"x12". Put a membrane between the wood n cement, shingle or something. If you used a truss to span the 30' , I'd add a large overhang to keep the dripline away, use rain gutters to keep water away from the foundati
on. And with the truss you could get away with no center wall. Use a motor home, camper inside or put a floor in later.
A little thinking outside the box building. And then you can use it, make some good memories. It can be done safe n sound. I know that folks can try n wait for perfection or the right prices. You have cabin fever n some great land for a cabin. Just gotta get er done
Thanks for the atta boys. Took a tremendous amount of effort to get done but worth it. I tried to make sure I enjoyed the ride and kept my family in mind. I have to come up with non typical builds often. And i enjoy the challenge
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spencerin
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2022 15:18
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From Lowe's website - "Suitable for burial or contact with the ground and fresh water immersion applications."
From Menard's website - "This lumber has been pressure treated for critical structural (CS) applications. It can be completely buried in the ground or submerged in fresh water."
The Menard's description is spot on with what's required for foundation-grade lumber (UC4B).
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ICC
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2022 17:25
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Quoting: spencerin The Menard's description is spot on with what's required for foundation-grade lumber (UC4B).
Well, that is excellent. No Menards in the SW, none I have ever seen. And the other bigboxes never stock that around here. But a few specialty lumber dealers do.
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TNCabin
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2022 23:13
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Quoting: Brettny Nothing is cheap today. If your in a rush on a budget..the best thing to do is to hold off on the build completely and save your money. No point in building a crappy building with a poorly constructed foundation.
I don't disagree at all; Covid shooting wood prices through the roof pushed back a lot of my plans (not just my desire for a cabin) over the last yearish. I am on a budget (and am an impatient person, lol) but not in a 'real' rush. I've spend the last 6 months clearly everything in the direct area, I'm just trying to get to a point to make a educated decision before spending the money.
It just seems ridiculous to pay $625 for some cardboard tubes. My mind gets caught up on stuff like that and it bugs me 
Quoting: spencerin From Menard's website - "This lumber has been pressure treated for critical structural (CS) applications. It can be completely buried in the ground or submerged in fresh water." The Menard's description is spot on with what's required for foundation-grade lumber (UC4B).
I've never heard of Menards, apparently the closest one is nearly 3hrs away, but their price on foundation grade 6x6 isn't much more than the regular pressure treated 6x6 @lowes. Thats pretty neat
Quoting: Aklogcabin A little thinking outside the box building. And then you can use it, make some good memories. It can be done safe n sound. I know that folks can try n wait for perfection or the right prices. You have cabin fever n some great land for a cabin. Just gotta get er done Thanks for the atta boys. Took a tremendous amount of effort to get done but worth it. I tried to make sure I enjoyed the ride and kept my family in mind. I have to come up with non typical builds often. And i enjoy the challenge
This is the kind of upbringing and memories that I have with my dad - creative problem solving (for a variety of reasons) and creative ways of doing things to get to the end point. <- I credit that a lot to way I do a lot of things in my life
Would you mind sharing details on how your pilings are installed (and/or pictures lol)? If not that is fine too I saw a couple of reference images online of something that I think is similar to your setup - they had a concrete 'cookie' at the bottom below the frost line, 6x6 post setup on the cookie, backfill to ground, beams connected (sitting on a notch with a bolt/nut ran through it) to the 6x6 and then floor joists on the beams. - Sounds similar to the concrete pier setup, but utilizing a concrete footing with a backfill 6x6 post instead of a large concrete pier.
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