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optimistic
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2012 12:34
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Hey
So the flatbed trailer I found, and intended to build a cabin on top, fell through... The guy didn't have proof of ownership and if I invest money in this thing I need to know it is mine.
Anyhow, I had another idea. How about those storage trailers:
http://gardzmen.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Storage_trailer.255131030_std.jpg
I would've rathered a shipping container on top of such chassis but they are harder to come by attached to a chassis and to buy them separately is much more expensive.... I did find a 45' storage container similar to this one for sale. The biggest benefit is the fact that this chassis can carry a whopping 80,000lbs - so no need to worry about weight anymore. Also, it is fairly high above ground which makes it less pron to wear and tear. With the 45' length I won't need a lofted bedroom... The inner dimensions are 108" high by 101" wide - right to the max.
I think that the easiest, and probably best, build plan will be to frame the inside (like a skeleton) with 2x4's but have the roof joists/trusses sit on top of the roof - the screws that will connect them will essentially drive through the aluminum. I will then have steel roof over it with no overhang but I will add overhang on site later (I can't have over hang before I have this on my site because of the road restrictions)
Issues & questions:
1. As I said, the inner width is 101" so I believe the outside is 102"... I want to have wood siding which will add at least another 1" to the total width. I can always wait and just do that on site but I much rather to just finish it up in Brooklyn. Do you think it is too risky?
2. I think that I can use the aluminum box as sheathing for the inner 2x4 frame.. right? I will just drive screws from the outside into the frame which will hold it all together. I will use those screws with the plastic part under the head to avoid any water seepage.
3. Silly question - if my road on the land is about 1000ft then you think the tractor guy who will bring it in for me will do it in reverse? I will obviously need to ask the guy I find but in general...
Thanks!!!!
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2012 13:13 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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Weight is a issue because you cannot go over on the axles. You will have to go through weigh stations with this trailer. A hired driver will not take this trailer anywhere for you unless you are willing to pay the over weight fines. If you find a "good deal" on a trailer or shipping container be aware. Most shipping containers are used at sea and are corroded from salt water. Look out for leaks and rotten floors. How old are the tires? What happens if you have a blow out on the road? It will cost you a lot of $ to call a service to come out and change the tire. How are you going to license and insure this trailer and get a DOT inspection? IMO this is a BAD idea.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2012 14:49
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I think you enjoy spinning your wheels. Money & time spent on that trailer will be a waste. Including the time planning it. You are not using your land. Have you considered your "loss of use"?
Get a small travel trailer that you can move in tomorrow. Park it on your land, start to enjoy your land. Pick up sticks, make it look like a park. Burn some big piles this winter. The fresh air and exercise will clear your mind. Then plan & build your cabin; sell the trailer.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2012 15:06 - Edited by: optimistic
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oops
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optimistic
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2012 15:42
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Not sure where you guys got this from:
silver - Not sure if you misread - THE CABIN WILL NOT BE OVER WEIGHT. Not even close. Also- I will NOT get a shipping container... and the risk of blowing a tire is a risk you take everyday when you drive to work. I am going to be significantly under weight so these tires are not being over worked.
Tom - I don't understand your first paragraph at all. Why is it a waste? what is this "loss use"?
This will actually be less expensive (less driving around to pick up material from far away, getting friends to help with the build, and so on) and easier (I don't really need to explain why right?) then to build on site. Not to mention how faster and better (I can hire an electrician and my contractor who are pros to do some of the more delicate work) build it will be.
Just to be clear - I plan to finish this cabin in 3-4 months..
Your suggestion, which I considered, has many issues: a decent shape trailer (over 30ft) will be more than 4000k to buy. Different people different tastes but I won't stay in those trailers the way they are (and I went to see brand new ones for 80k and still). So I will need to gut it and make it cool (which is possible). Then I need to hook up solar to it which is hard when you don't know electricity like me and are in the middle of a forest with no close by store, internet, or someone to ask. Just this phase might take some time to figure out. Then I need to figure out heat as I cannot use the AC of course... Then I need to build the roof so I can do a rain collection (I won't have a well nor septic) which boils down to tons of time spent fixing an old trailer - which could easily extend to 5-6 months as I can only work so fast by myself in a forest with no help.
Then I sell it??
Instead, for about 2k with shipping I get this storage trailer. I pay 300$ a month for rent (in my plan this will be 3-4 months so between 900 and 1200) build it whenever I have time after work and so on. Build it much faster and more efficient. Then I drive it up and I am done - ready to enjoy my cabin for good.
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2012 18:19
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I was in a critical planning meeting once with some execs. These guys were all over the board with wild ideas about how to accomplish the project at hand. One peer that was really just a grunt in the warehouse finally spoke up and suggested that the plan was seemingly being laid out by a couple guys in a small room throwing a super ball around. Wherever and whenever it hit was the new starting point of the project.
S L O W down. Get a logical plan together with realistic materials, costs, and outcomes. Then proceed. I don't think any one on this site is unhelpful on purpose. Everyone here has their own tried and true methods, which combined, make available a huge amount of experience, knowledge, and lastly, a good feel for what will and will not work in most given situations. I think that it would do you well to listen to more of the advice offered. You seem to ask questions, but then immediately resist, or justify why these ideas ought to work, rather than considering them fully.
As an example. A nice used travel trailer, or RV. Perfect starting point for what I perceive you are trying to do. You have stated repeatedly that you refuse to stay in the "the way they are". What about them is not to your liking? Out of curiosity, how is your proposed trailer going to be an improvement over what manufacturers have spent millions of dollars developing? They have heat, water, power, everything already figured out for you. I would not attempt to reinvent that particular wheel. Decent used semi trailers start at 3-5 times what you are talking about paying, prior to delivery or pickup. You have to get permits to even move it, and that is after finding a truck driver to back it in a quarter mile? Good luck.
I am with Tom 100%. You are spinning your wheels bald. Get something turnkey and go use it. You have spent as much time getting really nowhere with cabin planning, as you plan to spend building it. That is not going to be a 90 day project. I have taken on huge winter projects many times. It takes twice as long and costs twice as much as you ever think. You could get a travel trailer for a couple or three thousand, start building your cabin on site, then sell it when you are done with it and move in to your cabin.
So what if it takes a year or two to complete? That is part of it. That, or write a check to someone to do it for you. You will be so much happier.
And happiness, is what we are all here for. I am truly not trying to sound like a d**k, just trying to help convince you to take another direction.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2012 20:37 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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I guess my 12 years as a OTR award winning professional driver does not qualify me to give you advise on moving a trailer. Do you know the legal limit for your axles? I was going to post them along with a photo of a scale ticket. Since you don't seem to want my help I'm done. Good luck to you.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2012 21:44
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Deer slayer,
I pride myself on not being a stubborn person. If you read through my posts you'll see just how many times I listened to advice given by people here.
You have not read what I wrote twice, in two separate posts, that this WILL NOT BE OVER WEIGHT OR OVER SIZE  Not sure what else to do to make that point across.
Now after solving this non-existent issue you raised let's move on to your next point:
Quoting: wakeslayer A nice used travel trailer, or RV. Perfect starting point for what I perceive you are trying to do
I find the interior of RVs to be horrific. Matter of taste nothing to do about it. But let's say I decide to bit my lips and buy one, set it on my land, and use it as it is - as you suggested.
Now, let's roll back: My land is in upstate NY. I will not be able to build without an architect/engineer, stamped plans, most be bigger than 500sqft, perc test, EPA approval, well, and so on and so on... It is not economical for me PERIOD.
Therefore, I still need to get a trailer in there to build a cabin on. So I buy the exact same thing I want to buy for my plan - a storage trailer. Why? because a flat bed trailer costs more and cannot carry the same weight - so a storage van just makes more sense than a flatbed trailer.
Don't forget that I still need to pay for its delivery and so on so these are not added costs for my Brooklyn plan. Finally I start building the cabin on my land in this storage trailer, exactly the way I would have if I did so in brooklyn just that now it takes me.... what - 10 times longer? while I stay at an RV I dislike? that will not be fun.
If you could have built your cabin in your back yard and you had 10 hardware stores 8 minutes away and a home depot 15 min away, how faster will that be? Not to mention a laptop and the advice of nice small-cabin/forum people every night after you did a bit more work.
So it boils down to this: the only difference in cost is the $400 in rent I pay a month for this yard.
But I save on: Generator gas (for the RV) which in simple math: over 3 years, a weekend every other week, will cost at current fuel prices =$312, plus the extra gas it will cost me to drive everytime I need something from home depot that is an hour and 15 min away (way and back that is) then over 3 years is much more than $312. Plus - by buying a trailer and then selling it I will lose a few hundred bucks minimum right? All needs to be counted for. So bottom line that yard in brooklyn for 3-4 months (I agree with you on trying to set such timeline but I will get to that) is NOT that much more expensive and will bring me to that allusive happiness you mentioned: where you enjoy your time at your cabin - much much faster.
I can even improve this math... What if I just get the cabin, in brooklyn, to the point at which it is livable and just do the finish work on my land... This could even be done in no time if I really push it - making this plan even less expensive and faster.. much faster.
This also answers your point about how a winter project like this won't take 3-4 months but more. So even if you are right and I get to the 4 months mark without having it finished then I will be, beyond any doubt, at a point where I can pull it and finish in my land? solved.
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Just
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2012 21:58
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optimistic
Prove em wrong get at er !
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optimistic
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2012 22:05
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Wow.. Silver - not sure why you are so offended.
I do know what is the limit I can put on these axles... 80,000lbs.
The weight of the trailer itself is 15,000 so I have another 65,000 in terms of how much weight the axles can carry.
The legal weight limits in NY state according to this: https://www.dot.ny.gov/nypermits/repository/perm71b.pdf
are much higher than what I will have on this thing. The cabin is 10,000lbs so my entire thing will way 25,000lbs.
If I am wrong then please tell me how. Or don't.... I guess I really insulted you? (really?  )
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2012 22:17
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can you put a storage shed on your land?
You know you can get a half decent storage shed for around 2-4k and 'cool guy' out the inside to your hearts content.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2012 22:28
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Dillion - I know some here do the 144 sqft shed on their land in NY which is the limit for no permit. But:
A. that is too small for me
B. technically that is illegal. I spoke with a nice lady at the NY state building department and she was the one who suggested for me to build at 144sqft as it does not need a permit but then she wanted to read the law exactly to make sure...so she read it and it states that it should only be used for storing things.
So you can get away with it if someone doesn't know or cares but I rather build on wheels and not have that fear.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 08:50
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Opti... My $.02, for what they're worth...
I see both sides of this. With some ingenuity, you can likely turn one of those storage trailers into an acceptable cabin. But others on the forum have presented several possible (and valid) challenges you will have to overcome. I would suggest not discounting them so quickly.
That said, the biggest "unknown" and risk in your project seems to be the transport of the finished trailer from your build site in Brooklyn to your cabin site. Have you indentified and hired a licensed, professional driver to make this move? If not, you need to find and engage this person in your planning NOW, before you to purchase anything. Reasons for this include (but are not limited to):
1. Moving something this large is regulated by the US DOT- which mandates a bunch of rules, regulations and paperwork. You need to know those now, and accomodate for them in your build.
2. A professional driver can help map your route required to get it on site.
3. As part of the route planning, the driver can tell you if he can back the trailer the 1000' you want.
4. If you build this, then try to find a driver to move it, when you explain what you are trying to move every decent driver is going to look at you like you have three heads and drop you like a hot potatoe. Getting a driver involved now, in the planning infancy, will eliminate that and greatly increase their willingness to take responsibility for this non-standard load.
The last thing you want is a built out cabin/trailer in Brooklyn, that nobody will touch.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 09:06 - Edited by: optimistic
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PA - thanks for your help.
I agree. In terms of oversize: I know I am going to be within the limits so to NOT be oversized. Overweight is a bit more complicated to calculate and has more rules on it then oversize but as far as I can tell, and I just spoke with a DMV trailer specialist, I should be well below the weight limits and NOT be overweight.
Having said that, I do intend on first locating a professional, licensed, and insured, driver that will tell me if I will indeed be able to pull it and that I am NOT overweight.
Again I agree with you: the last thing I want is to build here and then get stuck without being able to pull it.
Thanks again PA
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optimistic
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 09:17
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I just got off the phone with a trucking company. They said that I can put as much as 35,000lbs on it without any issues. I actually believe I will put even below 10,000. I guess I am good to go.
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TheCabinCalls
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 09:25
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Are you sure you're acutally allowed to even do this? Can people put a modular home without a permit? I would think what you are doing is the same thing. You are basically building a mobil/modular home.
How do you think they will just over look this when a 144sf shed might technically be illegal?
So you could roll in a modular home and leave it on its wheels and you'd be fine? Just trying to find out the distinction. In some areas they allow a camper or RV, but it isn't technically supposed to be permant and should only stay for a set period (by deed restriction).
Not trying to stop you, but we ran into some "silly" things when we built.
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buckyb
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 10:04
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Another thing you may want to check on up front - the county in WI where I have my property and travel trailer requires that the trailer have current plates displayed and that it be removed from the property from Dec 1- March 1 each year.
Keeping the plates current probably isn't a big deal (unless because it's an old OTR unit it might need some sort of DOT inspection ?), but it could be a lot of hassle if you have to remove and store it each year.
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 10:26
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Opti,
Again, just trying to be helpful. Honestly, I am.
With respect to an RV being "horrific", I just keep thinking that you have very high standards. My wife and I bought a B-class mini RV this summer. It is 18 years old and has 150k on it. Now while I have pretty high standards myself, it is far from horrific. I would not be able to visualize myself making something too much nicer. That said, I did nearly all the structural and finish work in my current home. Including lots of electrical, plumbing, framing, trimming etc. For us, our cabin is 1350 miles away. I wrote checks to get mine built because of similar reasons you are stating. Distance, time, etc.
What is wrong with a permit, architect, perc test, septic, etc? I mean, for sure, it is more expensive. But it is more or less a pre-known cost. You can budget for it, save for it, and pretty much know what you are in store for. If you proceed with your trailer plan, and by all means, have at it, and something goes south on you all of a sudden you could be in as deep as you would a legit cabin anyway.
Repeat: I am just trying to help.
PS: Insure the daylights out of yourself before you move it.
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 10:41
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are you planning on jacking the trailer up onto blocks or something? Just curious what the plan is to get the tires off the ground so they don't dry rot.
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 10:54
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Quoting: Dillio187 get the tires off the ground so they don't dry rot
Good point. A $2000 semi trailer is going to have sketchy tires. Can they even be safely towed a couple hundred miles?
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optimistic
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 11:57
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cabincalls - definition of manufactured home is that it is a dwelling that is connected to utilities and that it has a seal by HUD. Mine will not be a dwelling nor will it be connected to utilities and so won't have the HUD seal. Technically this is a bit of a grey zone as the town could cite that it is indeed a home as a matter of their opinion. But as long as this as a plate on it, and it is titled and insured, they will have a problem with that claim because I can always move it plus I do not reside in there.
buck- I checked already and I do not need to move it. The building inspector said that as long as it is not being used on permanent basis - it is fine. I did not explain exactly what it is but rather I said an RV which is the closest thing to it. Sometimes explaining too much isn't that good either.
Slayer - I just find them to not be my taste. I learned a long time ago that arguing over taste is - a waste of time so please let's just put it at that. What did you mean to insure the daylights?
The guy who is selling it said the tires are good to go.
dillio - I won't jack it off the ground completely but I will put cinder blocks in several places to help the support. They will most likely dry out no matter what because they won't go anywhere. This is a valid observation. I might have to put some more serious support at some point to offset the tires going...
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TheCabinCalls
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 12:14
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Just playing Devils Adv. it seems to me this is a manufactured home not an RV. If I was a salty inspector as most are and I stumbled on this I would say right away:
- it has roof and siding more like a manufactured home
- it on blocks like a manufactured home
- is in the shape of a manufactured home
- so let's tax it, and force utility hook up, and did he permit?
I just want to see you enjoy your place not fight constantly to keep it.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 12:28
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cabincalls - this is a very good point. If they claim its a manufactured home and win then it will be an issue with HUD which is no fun.
I did speak to a guy who builds 'portable cabins' and he said that his portable cabins have a seal that they are an RV. That will be perfect for me... Now the question is - can I build to their specifications and receive this seal?
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optimistic
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 13:02
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I am trying to look into this... it is possible to convert a cargo van into a camper. I am just not sure who oversees it and how you register it.
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 13:15
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there are a ton of people out there that convert smaller cargo trailers into campers as well. I almost did this before deciding on my shed conversion. This could be something you could tow away yourself should you need to, instead of relying on a tractor to do it for you.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 13:32
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I got off the phone with DMV and they said that a trailer is a trailer from their perspective and they only care about the weight and size. He said that after I buy the cargo trailer and register it on my name then once I am finished converting it - I need to weight it and get a weigh slip, and then re-register it with the new weight.
He said that it doesn't matter that I now changed it into a camper - it is still a trailer from their point of view.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 15:35 - Edited by: TomChum
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Quoting: TomChum I think you enjoy spinning your wheels. Money & time spent on that trailer will be a waste. Including the time planning it. You are not using your land. Have you considered your "loss of use"?
"Loss of use" is the time you've owned the land and unable to enjoy it.
Quoting: TomChum Get a small travel trailer that you can move in tomorrow. Park it on your land, start to enjoy your land. Pick up sticks, make it look like a park. Burn some big piles this winter. The fresh air and exercise will clear your mind. Then plan & build your cabin; sell the trailer.
Quoting: optimistic I find the interior of RVs to be horrific.
Tolerate Horriffic while you work outside until dark, every day, because you love the work. And some time away from the internet. Getting good exercise, getting stronger, getting better ideas because your mind is CLEARED by physical exercise. And cleared, rested by the focus on whats ACTUALLY directly in front of you (a growing burnpile for example). You will be ready for spring 2013, with all the brush cleared, sticks piled and burned.
You will drive up that driveway on the first sunny day with all the trees budding, flowers blooming, it now looks like coming into a 'park'. By then you will KNOW the cabin site, you will KNOW whether the neighbors are going to rat you out. You will KNOW whether your driveway is too soft for a heavy truck. You may even KNOW how much longer you can tolerate living in a Horriffic trailer, and since it's springtime, it could be a good time to SELL it maybe for more than you bought it (last fall). And you will KNOW if you'd rather build a trailer from the ground-up in Brooklyn.
If you guessed I'm just assuming you will have an experience similar to my own you are right. I think you are taking big bites, too big for your stage of ownership. I think ONE season, enjoying your land, as I mentioned above will do you well.
AND, all the folks on Small-Cabin will see you moving ahead and maybe won't think their effort helping you was wasted when you change plans next week. I have big ideas too, and I ain't knockin' big ideas, they're fun! But I don't publish them. By the time you get a real project on the dock your posse's gonna be spent and you'll have to find a new forum (that with luck might have Mtn Don!)  START some of the smaller projects - you'll find out they take much more work than you thought, you'll be glad you didn't start on the big ones.
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DaJTCHA
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 19:19 - Edited by: DaJTCHA
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It is funny, reading this thread reminded me of my journey and experience with my little piece of ANF Heaven.
I had first thought of getting a shipping container, but there were concerns surrounding that. Would the driveway into camp hold the weight? What would the shipping costs be? What size would fit into the site and most importantly be able to get through our road's twist and turns?
Regrettably, the answers weren't good. I couldn't purchase the length I wanted because it wouldn't fit along the road in. I couldn't find a tow company that would place the container where I wanted it without charging me an arm and leg and stating, "we may not be able to do it and if not, we'll drop it at the point we feel is closest to your site!" What was I do to if that happened, rent a helicopter crane? LOL!
Then I looked into sheds. In our township, an outbuilding can be up to a 1000 square feet without a permit if used for anything but habitation. YES 1K square! I thought I heard wrong. I thought great, I'll just build a shed, which I did...but I've got mountain neighbors with cabins of their own on their property that visit my land regularly, some on purpose because I ask them to check on my place and others because their nosey and think it is their right because I'm the new guy in town. I wondered, how would they feel about my place being used as a cabin and not being taxed, permitted, or held to the same standards as theirs? I use the word standards loosely here...anyway, so the storage shed on our property looks like a cabin, but it is used strictly to stow our goods to make camping and property upkeep easier. We recently towed and installed our camper. Found out the township doesn't much care for "permanent" campers on property you own, although they are on just about every property on the way into camp and along the 1.5 hour of rural route we take to get there. Their law states that the camper cannot be on the property longer than 6 months at a time. There are no specifics on how long it has to be off the property to "restart" the 6 month countdown. The property co owner and I just figured that if they say something, we'll move it to my neighbor's front yard for a day and then move it back. They say the EPA is concerned about sewage and environmental damage, but in actuality they are concerned with the fact that they cannot tax a camper trailer whereas a cabin or permanent mobile home brings in revenue. We've got the same valid plated camper rules too, but I took it off because I don't want it to get stolen (the plate, not the camper).
All in all, if I could have purchased a shipping container (or two) and built them at home and then knew for sure that they could be towed into place up at camp for a reasonable cost...this is what I would have done. If I thought that I could do the same with a trailer, I might have considered that route as well. It would have been a h3ll of a lot cheaper in the end. I spend $2800 if fuel costs over a period of 8 months constructing our "Shed Mahal" and while it is built like a house complete with loft and would have easily cost three times what I spent building it...the $2800 was a tough pill to swallow on the tally sheet.
What you do in the end is totally up to you. It is your land and your money, so regardless of the outcome, it was/is your choice to live with.
Good luck!
Dajtcha
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optimistic
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 20:12
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Thanks Dajtcha.
The guy who is building my road, a really nice guy, said that he will do what it takes to pull in whatever I bring. He mentioned he can rent a huge dozer to help if needed and I will only go in during the winter when the earth is frozen.
The good things I found out today (thanks cabincalls) is that if I buy such cargo trailer and modify it then DMV will allow me to re-register it as a home made travel trailer - which is still the same as a TRAILER. They have no separate definition for travel trailer.
It makes sense to me that they want you to re-weigh it to make sure it is safe and that you have the correct weight on the registration... So then when we stop in weigh stations (not even sure if I need to do that) then they will weight it to make sure it is true? but what if I have a sofa in there and the weight is off.
I guess I just need to look deeper into the mechanics of the the move.
I found several forums who deal entirely with this kind of cargo conversion which is really not an new idea.
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TheCabinCalls
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2012 23:02
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Due Diligence is all I can say. We made the mistake of assuming things largely based on what others were doing and we met some serious road blocks. We even had the right people tell us things on the phone and then others showed up and tried to shut us down.
Keep a paper trail, ask a ton of questions and take off the rose colored glasses. You can put them back on once you start building and enjoying your land.
One good point above is to enjoy, work and feel your land for a while before deciding on a path. Watch where the sun hits, how the wind moves, where the views are. This is time well spent. and will keep you sane during this part of it!
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