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Small Cabin Forum / Cabin Construction / Insulation on a stick-build cabin
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waldenite
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# Posted: 20 Mar 2020 18:28 - Edited by: waldenite
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Hi all,
Acquiring materials and tools to get started this spring on a 10x12 shed. Roughly following the MyOutdoorPlans guide, I plan to only use 2 of the 4 skids their designs call for. I'm only getting the lumber to make the platform, the walls and rafters right now, looking for sales on siding and roofing materials. As it stands I plan to get a raised seam metal roof on the rafters and skip the plywood; and attach T1-11 to the studs as siding. Seeing as I plan to use the thing occasionally I figure I can stick a woodstove in there and slowly add in windows, insulation, and finish off the interior once the main structure is roughed in. I am wondering, however, if I should consider doing something different, like staple in a moisture barrier before the siding goes on, or put 11/32 ply down below the metal roof; or something like that. The base is uninsulated 3/4 OSB on top of 2x6 joists. I figure I can haul in rugs or put down rigid foam if need be, not sure what to do on top of the subfloor for now though. Salvage some hardwood or linoleum flooring?

Note: this is going into a Zone 5B area. I plan to leave the interior studs exposed to add windows as I see fit for max. solar gain. May get a couple huge bay windows for it.

fiftyfifty
Member
# Posted: 20 Mar 2020 19:52
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What time of year are going to use it, and for how many days in a row? T1-11 nailed directly on the studs is what you should do, no moisture barrier before the t1-11. I do think you should put some ply down below the roof. Put the skids in about a foot from the edges. Are you framing it 24" on center (what most sheds are) or 16" on center (most houses.) Going 24" on center will save on studs, and will allow you to just put some windows between the studs without having to cut studs or place a header. But most roll insulation is sized for 16"o.c.

LittleDummerBoy
Member
# Posted: 20 Mar 2020 21:54
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You need some light and ventilation right away.
Budget for a 'self-storing' screen/storm door kit to start.
Whatever you insulate with, make sure it's poor mouse habitat.
You'll want sheathing on the roof for rigidity.

monkeydeck
Member
# Posted: 20 Mar 2020 21:57
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i sell sheds both 24" and 16" o.c.,roll insulation is readily available 24" o.c., but i would recommend
using sheet foam, you can score it on a makeshift tablesaw or with a utility knife and then snap it. it wedges nicely between studs,leave an air gap, and make sure to put osb under the metal roof with a vapor barrier on top unless you like condensation dripping on you

Brettny
Member
# Posted: 21 Mar 2020 08:33
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10x12 with a wood stove will leave you about enough room for a bunk bed and a very small area to get out of the weather.

You need heat shields or 36in clearance from most wood stoves. I have a 10x14ft with a tiny wood stove. It's very tight with two people and gear just for a weekend. Wood stoves take up a lot of space. If this isn't just a temporary cabin I would build bigger and at least 14ft wide.


Yes you will need to Insulate. Do the ceiling first, then the floor and go from there.

waldenite
Member
# Posted: 21 Mar 2020 20:42
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It's 24" OC. Just got raised seam roofing panels, 2x6x8 roof rafters (also 24" OC) and T1-11. No vapor barrier. I plan to put in a Murphy Bed and folding table on hinges or just use a hammock. I made a woodstove earlier this year from heating duct which weighs maybe 10-20# and I plan to use that initially for heating in the winter season.

Ideally this will be a four-season structure, eventually. The plan calls for 4 skids, evenly spaced across the 10' width of the shed, but I'm just going to use two, and have those support the floor joists. Why should I move those inboard? I simply am going to remove the two center skids in the plan, leaving the other two all the way out at the edge so they support the joists directly above them.

I am limited in footprint size by building codes and am unable to go bigger at this time. I think with folding beds and a more open plan it'll be doable. I will just get the sub-floor done, then put up the walls, then the rafters and the roof; then go back and put the t1-11 on the studs directly, as proposed. I have everything but the sheathing for the roof at this point. For insulation, once I have it all closed in I can go up over a series of trips, add in more windows as I see fit, and start installing the 23" batts of fiberglass. I have priced R19 batts at about $400 for the entire structure. I like the idea of having exposed studs, but I don't think that is in the cards for this build, once insulated.

On the joists I have 3/4" OSB. Once the structure is closed in I may add 1/2" of foam and linoleum, luan or reclaimed wood on top of that. I have a pretty constant supply of packing peanuts, bubble wrap and some odd bits and pieces of foam board so I could try to incorporate the latter under the floor and build it up bit-by-bit and pack the loose stuff into the walls as a fill with plain board going on the inside of the studs; but perhaps rodents and packing peanuts are a terrible idea.

I'm not ready to drop another $400 on this to make it insulated right this moment, but perhaps once I have gotten the rest done I'll go that route. Re: the stove, I plan to also build a good area for that to go on: firebricks, and multiple layers of galvanized metal.

Two, or three sheets of galvanized metal, with a half-inch or 1" gap between them act as an excellent heat shield; it functions like a radiator around the stove. The firebox is about 8x10x20 on the little guy. Should be adequate.
For the T1-11, do you paint the inside and edges before attaching it? Should I look at any construction adhesive for the 3/4" ply underlayment or between the T1-11 or plywood on the ceiling?

ICC
Member
# Posted: 21 Mar 2020 22:04
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Quoting: waldenite
I will just get the sub-floor done, then put up the walls, then the rafters and the roof; then go back and put the t1-11 on the studs directly, as proposed.


Do you mean that your plan is to erect the wall stud framing for all 4 walls and then install the rafters and roof sheathing/metal before you install the T1-11 on the wall exteriors? The T1-11 is the only wall sheathing, right? No other wall sheathing? That is what I think you mean unless I am missing or misinterpreting something.

There is a big problem with that. The stud walls, without any sheathing will not be stable. The whole thing will be very shaky if you try to work on any roof components before the walls are sheathed. . I totally don't understand why anyone would build in that manner.

ICC
Member
# Posted: 21 Mar 2020 22:17 - Edited by: ICC
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Regarding the stove built from heating duct material. Steel heating duct material is galvanized. The zinc galvanizing emits toxic fumes when heated to high temperatures. The temperature varies with the type of galvanizing. Hot dip that is used for sheet steel emits very toxic fumes when heated to or above 392 degrees F. That is why single wall steel pipe, as used to connect a wood burning stove to an insulated chimney, is black steel, not galvanized steel. Same reason why galanized steel is never used for cooking pots and pans.

Did you weld the galvanized steel to make the stove? If so you were exposed to toxic fumes. Strangely, zinc is necessary for a healthy body. Too much can be dangerous though and the fumes from heating zinc too high is a very toxic substance.

ICC
Member
# Posted: 21 Mar 2020 22:52 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: waldenite
I am limited in footprint size by building codes and am unable to go bigger at this time.


That may very well be correct and it may very well also be a misinterpretation of the building permit rules in your area. There is most often a list of types of construction that are exempt from the need to have a building permit. One of those usually has a size limit from 100 to 200 sq feet. That varies a lot in different places. That exception also usually includes wording referencing "accessory building" or something similar. That means the exempt small building can be built when the new small building is an accessory to a larger, and properly permitted, principle building. That is common and often misinterpreted. I only mention it so you can be absolutely certain that what you want to build will be a legal project. Be sure before you start.

Example of permit exclusion section.....
"WHEN BUILDING PERMITS ARE NOT REQUIRED
A building permit shall not be required for the following:
1. One story detached accessory buildings used as tool and storage sheds, playhouses, and similar uses, provided the floor area does not exceed 200 square feet. "


waldenite
Member
# Posted: 22 Mar 2020 00:44
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Quoting: ICC
Do you mean that your plan is to erect the wall stud framing for all 4 walls and then install the rafters and roof sheathing/metal before you install the T1-11 on the wall exteriors? The T1-11 is the only wall sheathing, right? No other wall sheathing?


I will be putting the sheathing up on the walls before erecting them and putting the top plate on. You are right, it will be unstable. At first I had thought it best to get the frame covered to protect the OSB on the floor as I don't want it to get soaked, but figure that it'll be OK for a little while.
Quoting: ICC

Did you weld the galvanized steel to make the stove? If so you were exposed to toxic fumes. Strangely, zinc is necessary for a healthy body. Too much can be dangerous though and the fumes from heating zinc too high is a very toxic substance.

I did not weld, I built it in a manner similar to this guy: URL
I do understand that the zinc will burn off and can be toxic and cause nervous system issues if you inhale too much of it; I just took some today actually (as a supplement). I do not intend to fire this up inside the first time I use it! I've not done a test burn yet, but will be doing so with it outdoors and stay upwind of it until it has burned off, then hit the rest with a torch to remove what the wood fire doesn't. I am waiting for a dry, windy and sunny day to do this.
Quoting: ICC
. That varies a lot in different places. That exception also usually includes wording referencing "accessory building" or something similar. That means the exempt small building can be built when the new small building is an accessory to a larger, and properly permitted, principle building. That is common and often misinterpreted. I only mention it so you can be absolutely certain that what you want to build will be a legal project. Be sure before you start.

That is the intention here; this project is in part to serve as an accessory building at some later date, to gain experience in various parts of the building process, and the conventional stick-building techniques that are currently employed. As it now stands, the 120sft requirement is what is enforced, that is the external dimensions of the building. The Scandanavian settlers would build the sauna before the house, to have a place to relax after a hard day of work!

Brettny
Member
# Posted: 22 Mar 2020 07:22
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Your wood stove sounds like a death trap that could burn your building down. A light homemade wood stove are two things a wood stove shouldn't be. Hit Craigslist for a stove. They can be had for less than $200.

Sure you can rig up some shelter with some heat but at some point why...You will be spending more time in maintenance later or more money later in repairs or standing outside at 2am in your PJs while the whole thing burns to the ground. If your going to build something built it right.

What are you going to use for a chimney? That's even more important than the stove.

DaveBell
Member
# Posted: 22 Mar 2020 08:15
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Quoting: waldenite
I plan to only use 2 of the 4 skids their designs call for


Quoting: waldenite
I plan to put in a Murphy Bed


On the 24" OC walls.

Quoting: waldenite
May get a couple huge bay windows for it.


Which have no insulating value.

Quoting: waldenite
I made a woodstove earlier this year from heating duct


The Shed of Doom, Part 2.

Aklogcabin
Member
# Posted: 22 Mar 2020 09:46
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Wow. Can’t believe all the negative. Roof sheeting on that small shed is not necessary. Many buildings use only purlins. 1x4 boards run perpendicular to the trusses . On the wood stove. Lots of little tin stoves built from 5 gallon tin fuel cans . I still see one once in a while. Sounds like you’re aware of the toxins. He will be able to sheet two sides before standing the walls. Then will have to sheet the other two after standing.
This is your build. If you want to build frugally that’s your choice. A 10x12 building is pretty small. Your going to make mistakes

sparky30_06
Member
# Posted: 22 Mar 2020 09:47
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my shack is 10' x 20' with 4' x 10' being bathroom. You won't have room for a wood burning stove in there. I would look for other options. I have a small 1500 watt electric milkhouse heater and it does good on cold night in south Texas, 28F is cold for us. lol but i run it on low and it cycles.

KinAlberta
Member
# Posted: 22 Mar 2020 10:51 - Edited by: KinAlberta
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That’s VERY interesting about the dangers of galvanized metal!

I have a friend who never smoked a day in his life who is fighting cancer in his lungs. He’s on his fourth type of chemo. ( Lots of plans have been put on hold if not cancelled.) I also just learned that my cousin has terminal mesothelioma. He was a young painter when he was exposed to some asbestos. He also successfully dealt with brain cancer. (Brain cancer is/was fairly common among painters. Another friend that has a auto body shop also got brain cancer and beat it. We’ve learned the hard way that unnecessarily breathing in fumes is risky.)

Plus nobody imagines how things can come back and bite them but surprisingly often - they do.

waldenite
Member
# Posted: 22 Mar 2020 11:21 - Edited by: waldenite
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Regarding the stove I just thought of incorporating it since I already had the thing, and all the woodstoves I see here are appropriate for an 1000-1500 sft living space. Since this is more permanent than a tent and more closed in, it does make more sense to have a good solid cast-iron unit in with a proper wall pass-through and chimney set-up, following the guidelines laid out here: Stove Safety. . That being said, to speak of such things would be putting the cart far before the horse.

Given the small enclosed area, a bay window, with terrible heat conductivity even as a multi-pane unit will not be too great a burden, and can provide solar gain during the day. I would not dismiss it out of hand

As far as permitting, the exemption is for 120 sft. of floor space. This will have a 120ft exterior footprint.
This is discussed on this site here.

DaveBell
Member
# Posted: 22 Mar 2020 12:41 - Edited by: DaveBell
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https://www.etsy.com/shop/NorthWoodsMan?ref=simple-shop-header-name&listing_id=645815 017

Here are some small wood stoves. He may be able to cut and weld a port on the back for external air.

Do not build 24 OC walls. Build them at 16" OC.
10_x12_shed.jpg
10_x12_shed.jpg


LittleDummerBoy
Member
# Posted: 22 Mar 2020 22:04
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Semi-transparent latex stain on all sides and edges of the T1-11 before nailing to stabilize the whole sheet.

Brettny
Member
# Posted: 23 Mar 2020 06:54
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Never use latex on exterior surfaces. Oil based will soak into the wood and to re coat it all you have to do is brush on more. With latex and other non soaking in stains you will have to scrape, sand and re apply. Something that s extremely hard to do on T1 11.

I have a garage built in 1997 with t1 11. It's looked like crap, pealing paint and has had rotted places for 8 years. Next year I will fix it by covering with vinyl.

LittleDummerBoy
Member
# Posted: 23 Mar 2020 16:17
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I used Cabot brand semi-transparent latex. It soaked right in in 1994 and has needed no attention since (in Northern NH).
I did have to touch it up after a porcupine tasted my T1-11; that soaked right in in 1998.

waldenite
Member
# Posted: 23 Mar 2020 21:09 - Edited by: waldenite
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1. Why no vapor barrier recommended between studs and T1-11? Is that because without insulation it will be an interface where the dew point is reached causing water damage-mold-rot?
2. Brett, you advocate an oil-based primer on the exterior portion, LDB, just straight latex. I have plenty of latex, no oil-based primer on hand. May reduce porosity and overall paint cost, however. I am still tempting to go with galvanized steel for the weight savings. I am hiking everything in by myself so 7# for a 2x8 sheet sounds a heck of a lot nicer than 50-60 for a 4x8. Would galvanized siding be a terrible idea?

Brettny
Member
# Posted: 24 Mar 2020 07:34
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Your hiking everything In? Metal can be used for siding and is light. You will need to air seal and insulate it well as it can condense real bad if you dont.

Board and Batten siding is strong and is already broken down into smaller piece for you. If you do this I would build the frame and brace it then roof and cover the walls with tyvex. Then as time and energy allows bring in the siding.

sparky30_06
Member
# Posted: 24 Mar 2020 08:06
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Quoting: DaveBell
Do not build 24 OC walls. Build them at 16" OC.

I agree, especially with something that small you are not saving anything. Now a larger structure you can can save some money by going 24" OC but I also like to use 2x6s

waldenite
Member
# Posted: 26 Mar 2020 09:02 - Edited by: waldenite
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Quoting: Brettny
Your hiking everything In?

Yep, it's about 5-10 mins now once I get going quick. It's a singletrack which runs along a contour line in a hilly area with about 20% slope. Right now it's easiest to just throw something over the shoulder or use a wheelbarrow. For this reason it seems metal makes a lot of sense from a weight perspective but right now I am leaning towards board-and-batten the most.

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