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Wilbour
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# Posted: 6 May 2018 12:09 - Edited by: Wilbour
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I was reading the forum ( i alway read for the articles, not the pictures, as someone had said before) and it occurred to me that sometimes we are so busy focusing on each challenge as a separate unit and not part of a bigger picture.
For example, we have spoken about propane fridges and the benefits but the ultimate downfalls are upfront cost and keeping the tanks full. ($ and effort )
Lately there is a great thread about cordless tools and how you get what you pay for.
Also there is a thread on Yeti coolers and how great they are but costly.
So it begs the question, "What if I stop thinking about all these costly ideas and just pay for a quality solar setup?"
I speculate that within a year you would recoup the total cost of propane and startup of all the quality items like propane fridge and cordless tools.
The added bonus of having a plug n play cabin is fantastic. What Ii mean is that you can now just purchase house hold tools and appliances and run them without much thought.
The reasons we dont approach our cabins this way is because we always start off with limited funds and knowledge. Not to mention free stuff that was free for a reason.
When we see our power needs as a whole system and not patchwork it is a lot clearer. The most intimidating aspect is the learning curve.
This is a lot easier if you are just starting out and haven't already spent big bucks on that nice rechargeable took set and a propane fridge ect.
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 6 May 2018 13:19
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I get the connection between a better solar power system and going with an electric fridge vs. a propane one. However, I'm not seeing what solar has to do with cordless vs. corded tools. I use cordless tools at my house in town where I have all the power I want. It's not having to drag around an extension cord that has me buying cordless.
Having reliable power is nice though.
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Wilbour
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# Posted: 6 May 2018 14:03 - Edited by: Wilbour
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Ahh, yes. I didn't explained the correlation very well.
I have a set of cordless tools that have come to the end of their lifespan and i could use a new set. I was a little sticker shocked with regards to a decent set. I debated on spending the $ on a good set or just put that $ into my solar budget.
Hey. Nothing beats a cordless drill for convenience so i may just get another cheap one for little projects.
That reminds me that father's day is comming.
But i digress, there will be many here who will have valid arguments as to why it wont work but i just encourage people to concider the cabin life project as a whole.
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bbandeddie
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# Posted: 6 May 2018 15:17
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I hear you. I’ve noticed articles on how to hack this or hack that and recall a few about using cordless drill to run a water pump, etc. I think these fall under the sort of ideas the Op is thinking off.
I love a great hack as much as the next person and sure, in a small cabin seeing occasional use it often makes sense to use a hack as it lets you multi-purpose stuff you already have or solve a problem with minimum spend. But then the occasional use become more frequent and maybe transitions to full time or seasonal full time and the the hacks become a PITA.
In my case I just needed to charge iDevices and power some LED light strips. So I ran it off an old boat battery and carried the battery to the dock every day and plugged a 20W panel to it. Worked fine. Got the job done. But now we’re moving there seasonal full time. So. I’m dropping a bundle on creeky this week to put in 1150W of solar and 6.6kW of lithium. I’m near certain I’m over-speced for my currently planned power needs but it will be nice to just plug stuff in and not think about it much. Especially looking forward to swapping the propane fridge for a 110V compressor fridge. Consistent fridge temps, leave it running when I’m away and not worrying about a tank running out. And as quaint as toast on a gas stove is, it’s damn nice to just drop bread in the toaster and not worry about forgetting the toast until the beep. (LOL did I mention my ADHD?)
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KinAlberta
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# Posted: 6 May 2018 17:24 - Edited by: KinAlberta
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I’d love to install a full blown solar system at the cabin but it just won’t work.
I have purchased several electric heaters and tested them a couple years ago to see if I could abandon the coal and wood stoves but found that after 3-4 hours the electric heaters only raised the temperature about 2 degrees. (32F to 34F on a sunny October or November day. )
As for my electricity usage last year was a record. We used about 200+ kWh (around 10 kWh in June rising to 87 kWh in October, then down to about 30 kWh in November.)
Looking at my bill at this moment. At 4.51 cents/kWh in March and 6.8 cent/kWh in April (CDN$) it just doesn’t make a lot of sense to give up the convenience. (At roughly $350/yr connection/fix charges plus $5 or $10 in consumption it’s just not worth going solar unless it could provide heat as well.)
Now, if I could build a system to profitability sell into the grid I’d sure consider it.
I am looking at getting a 500 gallon propane tank to fill once and not have to refill again for years. I’d love to get rid of (or downsize) the old smoky coal and wood stoves.
https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/residential/building-and-renovating/switch-to-sola r-energy.html
Solar power & heating for your home
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/do-solar-panels-make-sense-for-alberta-homeo wners
Do solar panels make sense for Alberta homeowners
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Wilbour
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# Posted: 6 May 2018 18:02 - Edited by: Wilbour
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Oh for sure, solar electric for heating is virtually out of the question. Unless you are like a home near me which was built as a passive solar home from the ground up.
I understand that if you have a 500lb tank for heating and cooking that it's no more effort to use a propane fridge. But as fuel prices rise there is a considerable savings by going electric.
By no means should one throw out a patchwork of systems if they work and are reliable. On the other hand, if you need to replace one item, maybe it's time to rethink the whole shebang.
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rockies
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# Posted: 6 May 2018 19:43
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The only things you should use propane for are cooking, on demand hot water backup ( use solar in the summer and a wood stove in winter) and an emergency backup space heater set to turn on if the indoor temp drops below a certain level while you're away for a couple of days). A propane fridge just uses too much propane every day.
Energy efficient appliances like fridges are now available and can run very well on a solar system. If you're living off grid then you know that an electric dryer is right out, as is an electric water heater and probably a dishwasher. You can still run most electronics though.
Power tools can run when the generator is running.
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ICC
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# Posted: 6 May 2018 21:16
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A lot of what one can do with solar depends on what size the system is, of course. Panels are cheap, cheap, cheap these days. No need to skrimp on PV capacity. Batteries are still another matter.
Space heating with solar electric works with modern high-efficiency mini-split heat pumps. Plus you have the cooling half too. I have a multi-zone Mitsubishi that can heat with outdoor temps as low as -12 F IIRC. Like an inverter fridge, the motor compressor runs at variable speed and has no startup surge. But a good wood burning stove is still one of the best rural heat sources; mine has not been used much since the Mitsu was installed.
Dishwashers have improved like refrigerators have. My LG uses about 2.6 gallons of water per std run; that's less than doing the same quantity of dishes by hand. Power use is much less than old tech too --- it uses an inverter direct drive motor. I run it every 3 days on average. A very quiet 44 dB too.
Clothes washers, ditto. Inverter tech motor, low water use and works well on solar bank. Do laundry in the afternoon mostly after the batteries are full and the sun is still shining = truly free electricity. I am also fortunate to have great SW sunshine hours; bright skies most of the year.
Water heating: go solar water heating. NOT making electricity to run an electric heater but direct sun to water heating. Run that with a propane tank heater as the storage unit and propane can augment your water heating when the sun is insufficient. I turn the propane off except for Dec - Jan thru March - April, more or less. Of course, the solar water heat system must be freeze proof or drained during the freezing weather.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 7 May 2018 05:31
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I just watched a program on off grid solar houses in Canada. It is on Amazon Prime.
One guy on there had his home set up just like a regular city house. He said visitors would never know his house is off grid.
He did the set up himself learning along the way.
The cost? 60K!!!!
It's not a one time cost as we all know. I can't imagine what a new battery bank is going to cost to replace.
His home is full time.
He uses wood to heat his home.
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Jim in NB
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# Posted: 7 May 2018 06:42
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I am not finding my propane fridge using much propane. The fridge runs constantly and I have a propane stove/oven that gets used daily. Just filled the 100 lber and a 20lb pounder and it cost me $65, I will not have to fill the 100lber again until likely August. I figure it is costing me about around fifty cents a day for the fridge and stove. I am very happy with that.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 7 May 2018 07:12
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My two cents worth - not that I disagree with anything but want to add the aspect of "what is YOUR cabin for" (and this is very very personal)? Full time or perhaps four or five months at a time use might well change my perspective but many of us are really only part time and in my case, that is more like a bunch of weekends in the summer and a couple of full weeks. This has a major impact on the argument that an upgrade will pay for itself over time as that "time" tends to become very long and the initial costs may also be too high despite the argument that it is cheaper in the long term (say reason many have mortgages, car loans).
However, in our case, the reasons I have a small system and use propane etc is that I don't want a dishwasher. I like going out to the deck kitchen to cook on my propane two burning - even more so to go down the stairs to the BBQ (after all, I have a BBQ at home despite a full kitchen). I even like having an outhouse and using a shower tent, not to mention ever other day pulling out the gas pump and filling up the rain barrel supply from the lake and filtering our drinking water. I don't even mind the hassle of organizing the food in a cooler rather than a fridge. On the flip side, I like having lights, ceiling fan, on demand hot water. If I need 120ACV I don't might hitting a switch to turn on the inverter (don't need it often). Now I built my system with good components, sized well and safe - and had a lot of fun doing it, but for our use-case (although designed to enable expansion in the future). In all honesty, our system is way over complex and much more capacity than we need - but as I've said before, this is what happens when you have long Canadian winters to plan things! For us the cabin is a bit of an adventure and this is what makes it fun for the kids as well - we don't want it to be a home away from home - but that is just how we want it - no criticism of other's perspectives. Everyone has a different reason and the only thing I really hate is those that have 4000 sq ft multi million dollar lake front homes and call them "my cabin"!!
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Wilbour
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# Posted: 7 May 2018 07:35
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razmichael
Very insightful. You hit the nail on the head. Our long cold winters were designed specifically for thinking and working out problems.
Not to mention watching "Forest Rangers" and "Beachcombers" on tv 
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razmichael
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# Posted: 7 May 2018 08:22
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drb777
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# Posted: 7 May 2018 10:18
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Every cabin situation tends to be unique. Those of us in the southern US states have long periods where air conditioning is necessary to enjoy our escape from civilization.
Nothing against off-grid and solar, but when it's 100 degrees F and 90% humidity, if I can't fire-up the AC, I can't enjoy being there.
Each energy source has it's better applications, and it's smart to apply whichever available source to your individual situation.
Since I have a relatively cheap & reliable grid connection, and even free natural gas for heating/cooking, there's no way that solar can compete. Plus, I already have more maintenance duties than I can handle, 'don't need batteries/panels/controllers in addition.
Solar-on if that fits your needs, but I'll devote my attentions elsewhere.
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creeky
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# Posted: 7 May 2018 18:07
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ICC, I'm with you on mini-split heat pumps. We put one in the gfs "studio." It ran down to -30C. Its the new GREE. The cop is 4. So for every buck in electricity we put in we get 4 bucks in heat. Pretty nice. And when you look at the cost to install. And pretty much no maintenance. It was the best deal. Plus it cools in the summer.
Silverwaterlady. That guy spent $60 large some years ago. Prices have plummeted. A whole house solar system, like I installed last year, where the fella heats his hot water on solar and even charges his electric car. Came in at 15k. Now there was a lot of diy in there.
The key to solar is not having to do anything. I haven't done a thing to my off grid solar system in two years. Well. Except monitor the temp in the battery box. If it gets cold I turn on (via a phone app) a heater for an hour. Meh.
Solar is incredibly reliable now. The gfs solar system has been in place for 8 years. She's done nothing but make money.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 7 May 2018 19:04
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The movie is "Life off Grid" released in 2016. Not sure of the filming date.
It's true that each cabin owners need for solar is different.
We can get by on a 3K solar system.
I'm using propane for a refrigerator, stove, lights and hot water.
I do not need AC. Summer is perfect on the North Channel. We get a beautiful breeze wafting through the cabin most days.
It might be too hot a few days. Than we go wading in the lake or out on the boat.
Night time temps are great. It can get down to 55F some nights. Great sleeping temps.
The money we will be spending on propane will be cheaper than the money we spend for AC in our city house in the south.
It will be the first year we can leave the AC off since we will be spending all summer at our cabin.
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Wilbour
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# Posted: 7 May 2018 21:43
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Quoting: drb777 free natural gas for heating/cooking
How sweet is that! Can you run a ng genny?
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ICC
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# Posted: 7 May 2018 23:48
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Quoting: silverwaterlady The movie is "Life off Grid" released in 2016. Not sure of the filming date.
from IMDb.... "...From 2011 to 2013 Jonathan Taggart (Director) and Phillip Vannini (Producer) spent two years travelling across Canada..."
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 8 May 2018 11:49
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TY.
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drb777
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# Posted: 9 May 2018 14:09
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Quoting: Wilbour How sweet is that! Can you run a ng genny?
Yep, see photo. 'Only use it as a back-up, just can't beat the quiet of the grid. Still nice to have a secondary & reliable power and heating source.
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ILFE
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# Posted: 10 May 2018 15:54 - Edited by: ILFE
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Quoting: silverwaterlady The movie is "Life off Grid" released in 2016.
Any idea as to where to locate this documentary? I've looked, but have been unable to locate it thus far.
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 10 May 2018 15:58
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Quoting: ILFE Any idea as to where to locate this documentary?
http://lifeoffgrid.ca/
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 10 May 2018 20:16 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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I found it on Amazon Prime Video.
It was "free" with their membership to Amazon Prime.
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KinAlberta
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2018 13:13 - Edited by: KinAlberta
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Quoting: Wilbour razmichael Very insightful. You hit the nail on the head. Our long cold winters were designed specifically for thinking and working out problems. Not to mention watching "Forest Rangers" and "Beachcombers" on tv
Passive-Aggressive Haus - Canadian Architect
“We initially thought ourselves lucky to meet an engineer with impressive Passive House credentials. After months of discussions, he presented us with floor plans, which, to our eyes, looked dreamy and wonderful.
Then we showed them to friends. When enough people with design backgrounds used words like “dungeon†and “bunker†we had to accept we were in trouble.â€
“... So timber framing is an old-fashioned method that’s arguably better suited to modern building science. I’m glad some carpenters stuck with it, despite being out of fashion for 200 years. ...â€
“And cute isn’t superficial. As our architects point out, we take better care of things that are beautiful. An ugly or trendy kitchen will get ripped out, landfilled, and replaced sooner than a simply beautiful one, with all the attendant environmental impacts. To make our house, or any Passive House, something people might desire and care for over many years, beauty is a very practical requirement.â€
https://www.canadianarchitect.com/features/passive-house-ann-cavlovic/
Bolding is mine
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beachman
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2018 17:22
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Our solar has provided great service for late spring to mid-fall in eastern Canada. Like SWL, we have a propane frige and stove. Also lights to supplement solar - 110v plugs to run lamps (LED bulbs) and to charge portable drills, phones, computers, etc... It provides the power to spark our (Premier not Peerless) stove and to power a coffee grinder and hand mixer. Very handy. I would consider an electric frige if the propane one ever gives out but it does not consume too much gas. Have a propane water heater too. Propane was the main energy source when we built but solar has come a long way.
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rockies
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2018 18:22
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Part of the problem about solar power is that people tend to focus on the system itself and its costs. How many panels, what size invertor, how many batteries, etc. The first focus should be on minimizing the power demands. This gets touched on a lot whenever electric vs propane fridges get discussed but not about much else.
Divide your electrical requirements into different categories. Put appliances like fridges or freezers into one category, small appliances like blenders, coffee makers, etc into another, then electronics (TV, DVD player, radio), then communications (satellite phone, internet, satellite TV), and then on to lighting.
Then look over your list and decide if you really need that item. If you do then find the most energy efficient version for that product. However, one category that always seems to get forgotten are the small circulating pumps needed to move water around, and also the big well pump. Some of these can use more energy than a really large fridge.
Only when you know exactly which electric products you need and how much energy they require should you start designing your solar PV system.
Conservation first!
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beachman
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2018 20:40
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I recall that growing up in a large older house outside Boston that was built around 1900. The house was constructed with gas and electric because I had been told, electric in AC was fairly new and the builders were hedging their bets should electricity not survive. The fireplaces all had gas that was later disconnected even though they were all wood-burning as well. Just a comment. Rockies makes an exellent remark about planning for needs.
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creeky
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2018 22:29
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Quoting: rockies Conservation first!
That's rule 1 for any building really. Off grid or not.
While system costs have plummeted, managing your loads (heat, cooling, electrical, etc) makes environmental sense even if you have the resources to consume without regard.
Quoting: rockies Only when you know exactly .... how much energy
Couldn't disagree more. The most successful off grid systems I see are where folks built to the system not built the system to the imaginary loads.
For those in hot climates I'd just like to point out that solar and a.c. are meant for each other. Those long hot days usually have long hours of sun. The new heat pumps and better batteries are icing on the cake.
If I lived in a hotter climate i'd be doing hot water with a pv run heat pump hot water heater. Simple. Reliable. Cheap.
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KinAlberta
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2018 23:36 - Edited by: KinAlberta
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Northern Alberta Institute of Technology’s 5-year study on solar panels in winter - GreenBuildingAdvisor
Scott Wilson | Posted in General Questions on December 20, 2018 09:23pm
This article discusses whether snow has much effect on the performance of solar panels.
http://www.nait.ca/44779_103955.htm
https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/question/northern-alberta-institure-of-technolog y-5-year-study-on-solar-panels-in-winter
SOLAR PANELS SHINE DESPITE WINTER'S BLAST, NAIT STUDY FINDS
Five-year study by alternative energy experts shows snow has little impact on panels' effectiveness
Posted: July 12, 2018
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creeky
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# Posted: 30 Dec 2018 00:26
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Great find KinAlberta.
I would have guessed more around 20%. But 2 to 7%. Cool.
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