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rockies
Member
# Posted: 21 Feb 2017 22:47
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I didn't realize gasoline could go bad.

https://www.sustainablepreparedness.com/index.php/blog/fuel-stablizers-and-emerging-t hreats

Wendigolake
Member
# Posted: 22 Feb 2017 20:32
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Gas goes stale after 30 days. I put stabilizer in every can of gas for my outboard, generator and gas powered tools. The gas in the tank and in the lines that way is conditioned and if I don't use them for over a month, then there is no problem. Also you should use a stabilizer that handles ethanol. A lot of the outboard manufacturers recommend using a stabilizer because of the ethanol in our gas now.

spoofer
Member
# Posted: 22 Feb 2017 21:27
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I will Not use any ethanol gas in any small engine. It will ruin everyone of them. It only goes in my daily driver. You can find ethanol free gas everywhere now.. Google It!

bobrok
Member
# Posted: 22 Feb 2017 21:37 - Edited by: bobrok
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I am very confused on the issue of using stabilizer additives. I've spoken to many mechanics and they can't agree among themselves on a recommended course of action.

One recommends draining the fuel tank and bowl and leaving everything dry for the off-season.

Another says fill the tank to the top, add stabilizer, run engine to insure distribution, and put it away.

A third says run all of the ethanol gas out of your tank, fill the tank with non-ethanol gas, do not add stabilizer because its crap, run engine and put away.

And then recommendations change between 2-stroke and 4-stroke engines.

Looking forward to comments on this topic.

Edit: @spoofer, I'm with you on that small engine non-ethnol-only. I've learned that the hard way.

spoofer
Member
# Posted: 22 Feb 2017 21:55
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bobrok

any engine I can run the gas out of I do.(mowers, log splitter, ice auger etc.). The gas tanks are topped off with gas and fuel stabil in my summer car and ATV. Ethanol is especially deadly to outboard boat motors.

paulz
Member
# Posted: 22 Feb 2017 23:25 - Edited by: paulz
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I run mine out too. If it's not rotting the fuel hoses it's plugging the jets.

I have removed the ethanol from gas a few times, seems to work. Pour about a cup of water per gallon of gas in a clear jug. Water sinks to the bottom right away, mark a line. Next day you will see the water line move up as it absorbs the ethanol. Wait a couple days until it stops, drain off. Better instructions and videos on the 'net. Don't drink the hooch, though I've been tempted..

old greybeard
Member
# Posted: 23 Feb 2017 06:52
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I use ethanol free gas at camp, and at home as well. I also use stabilizers, and have for 20 years. Alway run the chainsaw until empty, and turn off the gas flow on my other devices and run the carb dry. I have never had a carb gum issue. And gas last a lot longer than 30 days. I bet I go 4 months per 5 gal can at times.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 23 Feb 2017 08:50 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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OK, I am a technician by trade, have been for 38 years. Use ethanol free in anything that will set more than 30 days without running. Long term storage, use sta-bil.

As for carb empty or full. Here is what happens. An empty carb ie letting the engine run till it quits isnt empty, its just low enough to keep the engine from running, its about 1/2 fill with fuel and of course, air space. If you want a carb empty, it need to be drained completely. Honda generators have nice bowl drains. But little fuel remains and the air space you get oxidation on the aluminum parts. So leave the drain open during storage and fuel off. Roll it around till its all drained out. So a better option is to keep the carb bowl full with stabil treated alcohol free fuel. But fuel evaporates out of the carb, so turn the fuel on once a month to keep it full. Keep the tank full too, air space is moisture.

Note, turning the fuel on on a Honda generator doesnt flow the fuel until the engine is running. So a few tugs on the rope or start it.

If its generator season for you and using it often, ethanol free fuel isnt critical, but as you wind the season down, you want to end up with no ethanol in the system. So plan ahead.

Go to www.pure-gas.org to find ethanol free fuel, airports or marinas all have it too. I dont use any ethanol in my small engines, period!

I use Scribner race jugs in 5 gallons, I have 2 green ones for diesel and 4 more for gas, ie 3 clear and one orange. The orange one is for mixed race gas (competition off road motorcycles)
http://www.scribnerplastics.com/jugs---funnels.html

My jugs are made by Scribner plastics. Not rated for gas, means they work perfectly, just dont need that nanny breather set up that leaks and makes it impossible to pour. I also use a ball valve and a spout so I can fill my generators right from the jug with no spilling.

Cowracer
Member
# Posted: 23 Feb 2017 09:00 - Edited by: Cowracer
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Quoting: bobrok
I am very confused on the issue of using stabilizer additives. I've spoken to many mechanics and they can't agree among themselves on a recommended course of action.



When asking mechanics, you get opinions, not facts. Instead, ask a petroleum engineer. I did once. He told me (and I quote as best I can...) Add as much stabilizer as is required for a full tank of fuel. Fill tank full. Run engine 10 minutes or so to circulate to the engine.

The idea is that oxygen and moisture is the enemies. Oxygen oxidizes the volatile components of gasoline, turning them into a varnish. Moisture does not mix with fuel and will condense out and settle to the bottom of the tank, causing corrosion in metal tanks. The water slug will be sucked through the engine first causing damage, and the rust flakes won't do any good either.

Filling your tank all the way up eliminates the air space above the fuel, Less air, less oxygen, less area for moisture to condense on. You also get less "pumping" of air in and out of the tank as temperatures change. He even said, given the choice of a half empty tank with stabilizers, or a full tank without, he will take the full tank any day for long term storage.

Ethanol really affects only the rubber components of engines. Most engines (except for a very few low cost imported small engines) have ethanol stable rubber in them nowadays. It is also one hell of a solvent, so taking an older motor with fuel deposits in it and running it the first few time with ethanol will free up those deposits and raise hell in the fuel system. I am not scared of 5-10% ethanol. I have run it in my 2001 boats 125 mercury for years without so much as a hiccup.

While on the subject, diesel fuel can be stored for decades without degradation. The former Soviet Union had oceans of diesel stashed away in depots from the days of Stalin. The Russians use that fuel routinely in their military equipment.

What diesel can do though is grow alge. Its recommended to add a quality algaecide if you plan on storing diesel for over a year.

Tim

NorthRick
Member
# Posted: 23 Feb 2017 15:50 - Edited by: NorthRick
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Quoting: paulz
have removed the ethanol from gas a few times, seems to work. Pour about a cup of water per gallon of gas in a clear jug. Water sinks to the bottom right away, mark a line. Next day you will see the water line move up as it absorbs the ethanol. Wait a couple days until it stops, drain off. Better instructions and videos on the 'net. Don't drink the hooch, though I've been tempted..


I wouldn't do that. The ethanol is fairly high octane and when added to gasoline it raises the overall octane rating of the mixture. If you remove it, you lower the octane of the fuel you have left. So, if you had 87 octane gas with 10% ethanol in it, and you remove the ethanol, you now have gasoline that is something less than 87 octane.

darz5150
Member
# Posted: 23 Feb 2017 16:33
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Would the additive "heet" help control the moisture problems in gas with ethanol?

MtnDon
Member
# Posted: 23 Feb 2017 16:40
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Quoting: NorthRick
if you had 87 octane gas with 10% ethanol in it, and you remove the ethanol, you now have gasoline that is something less than 87 octane.


Best thing is to use the link Toyota___ gave and then buy 90 - 91 octane alcohol free gas. Or buy the quarts available at Lowes, HD and small engine places, if you use small amounts. Higher octanes burn slower and cooler which I like when using small aircooled engines in a hot climate like our summers.

Cowracer
Member
# Posted: 23 Feb 2017 17:09
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Quoting: darz5150
Would the additive "heet" help control the moisture problems in gas with ethanol?


Heet is basically methanol. It is hygroscopic, meaning it has an affinity for water and absorbs (mixes) readily with it. All Heet does is lower the freezing point of the water so that it doesn't freeze. The water is still there.

Tim

paulz
Member
# Posted: 23 Feb 2017 17:52
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Quoting: NorthRick
I wouldn't do that. The ethanol is fairly high octane and when added to gasoline it raises the overall octane rating of the mixture. If you remove it, you lower the octane of the fuel you have left. So, if you had 87 octane gas with 10% ethanol in it, and you remove the ethanol, you now have gasoline that is something less than 87 octane



That is true. I used 92 octane and had no issues.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 24 Feb 2017 23:12
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ethanol has lower BTU's and when ethanol is used, the economy goes down.

Wendigolake
Member
# Posted: 25 Feb 2017 20:53
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Quoting: old greybeard
And gas last a lot longer than 30 days. I bet I go 4 months per 5 gal can at times.

Yes you can use gas for 4 months or more. It will not be the same condition as fresh gas or gas with stabilizer in it. The stabilizers works by slowing the oxidation process. It helps keep heavier compounds in solution and allows the gas to absorb some of the moisture that forms in a tank instead of separating into layers. If you do not put stabilizer in your fuel, after 30 days the gas is not in the same condition as it was when you first bought it. It has already started to separate out. Will it work after 30 days, of course but over time the gas degrades and eventually will cause you problems in your fuel system. I use stabilizer and also run my carbs dry in all my gas powered equipment. So far I have not ever had a problem related to old gas. Also remember, summer gas is different from winter gas. They change around the additives in it during the refining process depending on what they expect temperatures will be during usage.

DaveBell
Member
# Posted: 28 Feb 2017 00:12
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Quoting: NorthRick
I wouldn't do that. The ethanol is fairly high octane and when added to gasoline it raises the overall octane rating of the mixture. If you remove it, you lower the octane of the fuel you have left. So, if you had 87 octane gas with 10% ethanol in it, and you remove the ethanol, you now have gasoline that is something less than 87 octane.


Octane is not a power rating. It is an anti-knock (pre-detonation) rating related to the compression of the engine. Using 92 octane in an 87 octane engine does nothing except take your money. FYI.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 28 Feb 2017 08:48
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Quoting: DaveBell
Using 92 octane in an 87 octane engine does nothing except take your money. FYI.


Not to mention, a reduction in power. If the engine wasnt designed for it, ie compression ratio, there will be no gains and possibly even a loss.

fitzpatt
Member
# Posted: 28 Feb 2017 10:00
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Quoting: DaveBell
Using 92 octane in an 87 octane engine does nothing except take your money. FYI.


Unfortunately, in Ontario, it is near impossible to find any ethanol-free gasoline that is lower than 91 octane.

Cowracer
Member
# Posted: 28 Feb 2017 10:51 - Edited by: Cowracer
Reply 


Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech
Not to mention, a reduction in power. If the engine wasnt designed for it, ie compression ratio, there will be no gains and possibly even a loss.



100% true. Octane actually RESISTS combustion. I have had this argument countless times with guys back when I raced circle track. There was always one yahoo that thought if he put 104 racing gas in his lawnmower, it would run so good it would hover. In actuality, I probably would run like total crap.

My class was limited to flat-top pistons, specific heads and no milling of the heads or decking the block. In short, no matter what you did, about 9.5 to 10:1 compression ratio was all you would get. Guys would routinely think they would have to run 104 to 110 octane racing fuel because "Uh... it's a race car".

I ran 50-50 104 and pump 93 just so I could run the timing up to about 30degrees BTDC without detonation. Saved me a TON of cash and it was rather peppy. Once when I forgot to get pump gas, I ran it on straight 104 and I swear it felt less responsive picking up the throttle coming out of the corners.

Too many people out there piss away their money thinking higher octane is better. Not always.

This is a GREAT thread!

Tim

paulz
Member
# Posted: 28 Feb 2017 11:03
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Again all true. I had mentioned using high octane in my ethanol removal experiments (I've done it a few times, maybe 15 gallons) as, according to the instructions I read, removing it does lower the octane rating, how much I don't remember. I was using it in a variety of power equipment and didn't want to risk detonation to save a few cents. I have since found ethanol free gas about 75 miles away, where conveniently, my good friend has his cabin.

NorthRick
Member
# Posted: 28 Feb 2017 16:53
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Quoting: DaveBell
Octane is not a power rating. It is an anti-knock (pre-detonation) rating related to the compression of the engine. Using 92 octane in an 87 octane engine does nothing except take your money. FYI.
Yes, I understand that, as apparently, does paulz. I was just trying to point out that removing ethanol from a gas/ethanol blend will lower the octane of the remaining fuel.

We're far enough from the corn belt that virtually none of our gasoline has ethanol in it.

ChuckDynasty
Member
# Posted: 28 Feb 2017 18:10
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PRI-G Fuel Stabilizer PRI-G-16-A, 16 oz
4.7 out of 5 stars 47 Reviews

I'm approaching 3 years for 50 gallons gasoline treated with this. According to the company can retreat again for another three years. I'm going to retreat again but use it. I'll let you know how I make out.

ChuckDynasty
Member
# Posted: 14 Mar 2017 12:22 - Edited by: ChuckDynasty
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Yesterday I added 5 gallons of gas to my vehicle with 3 year old gas that was treated 3 years ago with PRI-G Fuel Stabilizer and I treated it again before I put it in the vehicle.

I also added 5 gallons of gas that was treated in the fall but did not retreat this gas again and this gas was in a plastic container.

then I drove 7 miles to the gas station and filled remainder of tank with 5.4 gallons of Sunoco 87 octane and drove back home. All my fuel contains ethanol.

I retreated the 3 year old gas with PRI-G that was opened 3 years ago and the fall fuel was originally treated with the same opened bottle.

I noticed no problem with vehicle and I'm not sure if I would this soon or not. If I continue not to notice any problem I won't add any fresh fuel to vehicle and will monitor my mpg for this tank.

If I remember correctly when I spoke to the company I asked about shelf life of opened product and I believe I was told three years.

If all goes well I have 45 more gallons to use up and will order a new bottle PRI-G to treat another 50 gallons. The 50 gallons I store is stored in metal 5 gallon cans bought new 3 years ago.

I'll let you all know how I make out.

DaveBell
Member
# Posted: 15 Mar 2017 01:09
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BG-44K is an excellent fuel system, head, carb, injector, valve, cleaner. It has the highest level of cleaning agent.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 15 Mar 2017 20:45
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Quoting: ChuckDynasty
I'm approaching 3 years for 50 gallons gasoline treated with this. According to the company can retreat again for another three years. I'm going to retreat again but use it. I'll let you know how I make out.



Chuck, I had some outboard gas that was alcohol free and treated with Sta-Bil, it was 8 years old and worked just fine, smelled fine too.

paulz
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2017 13:30 - Edited by: paulz
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Yesterday I had to remove the carb from the Briggs V-twin that powers the water pump on our town's fire truck. Third time I've had to do it, down to running on one cylinder. Every time, one of the jets is plugged with a clearish jell. Not to mention the aluminum bowl is corroding, leaving a white ash. This is a 2015 rig and the Briggs was new too at the time.

The Briggs runs off the same main tank as the truck. We get calls and do drills frequently so the gas is not stale. Putting a stabilizer will be difficult because the tank gets topped up often so it's full if needed. One option might be to mount a second small tank for just the Briggs. We try to remember to run the pump often but sometimes it gets overlooked.

I know the corrosion is due to the ethanol/water but I'm not sure the gummed jets are. I have noticed the same problem in some of my equipment. I don't think it's a problem with fuel injection, the 100 psi pumps probably blow the crap out.

1tentman
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2017 13:47
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I have had real good luck with a product called Sea Foam, has anybody else used this, whats your opinion of it.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2017 14:41
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Quoting: paulz
Every time, one of the jets is plugged with a clearish jell. Not to mention the aluminum bowl is corroding, leaving a white ash.


Paulz, the fuel on this have a shut off valve? The bowl is drying out, if its left off when not in use, good idea to turn it on once every few weeks to keep the bowl full of fuel. Other option for long term storage is to turn the fuel off, pull the bowl and remove all gas and spray inside with a light fogger oil or a CRC556 etc. But once the fuel is turned back on, you need to either keep it full of fuel or remove it and clear it again (fog it) and of course, alcohol free fuel is a must. But does this get its fuel from the rigs tank or does it have its own tank? I cant stress how important it is to not use alcohol fuels in power equipment that sets. And always use Stabilizers in the fuels for these small engines. If they ran all the time, daily etc or even a few times a month, no issue. But many set too long.

There is fog kits in aerosol cans you can use to inject into the bowl vent tube and back pressure it into the carb. They use fog kits for pressure washers too. This keeps the valves from sticking in a pressure washer after setting. Very important. Otherwise, the unloader valve sticks and in springtime, no work.

Stabil makes a fogging oit, go to: https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/fogging-engine-proper-use-fogging-oils

cman47c
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2017 15:43
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Seafoam is very good. MY ATV mechanic told me about it. I have since used it in the gas for all my generators, lawn tractor and boat. I use it instead of Stabil.

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