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Rickson2
Member
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 17:45
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I am told by my local Township that I cannot build ANY building on my 20 acre site that has no restrictions as far as "protected" forest or anything, but they tell me that I cannot build ANY outbuildings until I have constructed a main, inhabitable building (no tiny houses allowed) with water supply and a permanent foundation. I grazed across a section in their building code that spoke of 2000 ft/sq but I am not certain that is a minimum size requirement. And all buildings must be approved by the local building inspector with "professional drawings". They say I can build up to 100 ft/sq without a building permit but ONLY after the main habitation has been approved and constructed. It is in the Havelock, Ontario area. Does anyone know if they are not giving me the full story...for property tax reasons maybe?
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 17:50
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In Canada, that seems to be the norm, I don't know how they can dictate minimum size of 2000 sq feet, I would say a guy can live well in under 1000 sq feet easily too.
Basically, they want no cabins, just residence.
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Rickson2
Member
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 18:03
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Property tax I assume is the biggest motivator for these bylaws...if in fact they do exist. I have not been given a digital bylaw that covers this other than no "temporary habitation" allowed ?
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 18:07
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Normal situation many places in USA too.
Minimum square footage requirements are zoning issues or may originate with a HOA. That sort of thing is very local and can vary from no minimums to whatever the folks who are already there want to decide on. Building codes (here in USA) only address minimum square footage for some things like bathroom, kitchen spaces, not the entire building.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 18:11
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There is nothing within the Ontario Building Code that specifies Minimum Square feet for a residence. It does state that any structure over 10 square metres requires a permit.
That being said, Townships can make certain specifications and the closer you get to Toronto the more ridiculous it get's... and Haveloc isn't all that close but it is (705) so maybe that Urbanite Infection has spread that far. I have heard from others in the forums (here & elsewhere) that Haveloc is a bit regressive when it comes to Septic, Sewage and how grey water & composting is for the hippy troglodytes... Or was that Frontenac (right next door)...
2000 Square feet / 185 sq m, says that there is more to it and likely that particular area is tagged for something but likely God only knows. Bachelor / Studio apartments are typically 300-500 sq', 1 Bedroom from 450-900 sq' and 2 beds to 1000-1100 on average... Typical 3br std Townhouse Garden Home is 1100-1500 sq'.
Request the township to provide documentation related to such minimum square footage ordinances and any other residential, farm, recreational land ordinances they may have.
On the point ordinances / zoning... What is the zoning of your property ? THAT may likely have the bearing on what you can do... for instance Agricultural is different than Recreational versus Residential. It may be possible to rezone so you can build what you want but haven't got a clue what that would involve other than likely some obscene amounts of hard earned cash and a leaching lawyer
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Rickson2
Member
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 19:19
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Hey Steve_S
I can't remember the actual zoning it was when I purchased it. An acronym I do remember. I do know it allowed for Residential but there was something else in the acronym. Possibly agriculture as well?? I don't remember for sure but it is pretty solid Red Oak (a few Bur Oak) and scattered Beech, maple(s) and Black Cherry, I would say about 50-ish years old. It has been logged in the past. I see the remnants of it. Likely with horses.
I think you are likely right about the cidiots' nonsense reaching out too far from Toronto. I appreciate your input and advice.
Thank you.
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Rickson2
Member
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 19:23
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I live about 1 hour away so the next time I am up that way I will have to make a point of stopping at the Township office and getting a copy of the bylaws. At least I can cut firewood and have already cleared and put in a 500Ft road with a couple culverts in the low area at the start of the drive for spring run off. It is a wet area for the first 50 feet in then goes up in elevation.
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Don_P
Member
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 21:46
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US building code calls it an "accessory" building, yours sounds similar. I've tried to build one first on bare property before as well and was asked what it was accessory to. That exemption is for a utility shed accessory to a primary residence. The reason for not allowing it first is to prevent what everyone wants to do... live in it.
Sounds like some good timber to incorporate into the cabin from the clearing work.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 22:27
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Geez, 2000 sq. ft.? That's the absolute pits. Discriminatory, too, IMO, against housing for small families, single, and elderly people who simply don't need, want, or can't afford to maintain a home that size.
Is there any way you can apply for a variance, along those line? Maybe do some research and see if it's been done?
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 08:35
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Rickson2 I think this might be the bylaw document for your area:
http://www.hbmtwp.ca/userfiles/files/Comprehensive%20Zoning%20By-law%201995-42.pdf
I'm not sure what your lot would be zoned, but for example on page 114, Rural (RU) Zone refers to section 6.1.6 (a single detached dwelling). 6.1.6 (p. 117) Minimum Floor Area 1050 square feet. That may not be good news, but it's better than 2000 square feet.
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Jebediah
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 09:30
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I know a contactor who builds in that area, also Sydney and Prince Edward township 1050 is what he told me, although that was 10 years ago
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Rickson2
Member
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2016 15:30
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Indeed good timber. Some VERY large White and Red Pine trees also. Would have made great ship masts a couple hundred years ago.
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2016 15:58
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Quoting: Rickson2 Some VERY large White and Red Pine trees also
might want to double check before cutting them. In my area those belong to the crown and you can't cut as you please. Need permission and will have to pay for trees cut.
Or make sure there is no evidence left over if one happens to go missing.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2016 16:17 - Edited by: bldginsp
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"In my area those belong to the crown and you can't cut as you please."
Can someone explain this 'belongs to the crown' thing to me? Does that just mean there are laws that state what you can and cannot do, or does Queen Elizabeth herself have direct ownership of all, including oathes of fealty to her reign, such that even your socks, in the final analysis, belong to the crown?
Sorry, I'm one of those pesky American Constitutionalist types, and the Constitution strictly prohibits any granting of any title of nobility. When in England do as the English do, but here in the Americas we shine our fannies at nobility. Unless you're talking the King, Elvis Presley.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2016 17:09
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When we say that the land is "Crown Land" it means that it is federally owned on behalf of the people of Canada. The term "Crown" is left over from our history under the Crown. These include National Parks, Land Preserves and a lot more...
A pretty good description can be found here wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_land#Canada It should be noted that it varies between Commonwealth Nations and different "Crowns" as such.
American Royalty doesn't exist ? ;)... There's the Hollywood Gang of course and the Political & Industrial Dynasties too... Just different kinds of Royalty (mostly Royal Pain in the A..)
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2016 17:21
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Quoting: Steve_S American Royalty doesn't exist ? ;)... There's the Hollywood Gang of course and the Political & Industrial Dynasties too... Just different kinds of Royalty (mostly Royal Pain in the A..)
Good point. We say that we are all equal under the law, but the FBI has yet to indict Hillary for her email snafus, which are clear violations of established law.
So we have the forms of democracy with the content of plutocracy, whereas Canada has the forms of a noble caste system with the content of democracy.
Where's my beer?
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Wendigolake
Member
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2016 20:05
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Is that a weak American beer or a real good strong Canadian beer? LOL
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Don_P
Member
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2016 21:22
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How does that work? When developing a building lot, do you mark trees and call out a government forester to negotiate?
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AK Seabee
Member
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2016 21:24
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wendigolake,
That was funny! 😂
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2016 22:26
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Quoting: Don_P How does that work? When developing a building lot, do you mark trees and call out a gove
Yes, here in California. To clear any space for any purpose you are required to get a timber harvest plan or a permit to cut based on exemptions from the timber harvest rules, and a state forester comes out and inspects to verify the work. You are not even supposed to clear for a septic without it.
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bushbunkie
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2016 09:37
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Hi Rickson2....I feel your pain!
You can learn more on pg.2 of my thread on Members Projects - My 100 sq. ft Cabin in Southwestern Ontario - Lake Huron.
I had 70 acres around Lindsay (Balsam Lake) and got rid of it because of the standard rules...no building a shed until you have a habitable building...has to be a minimum of 1000 sq. ft etc...must have a septic system, etc. I bought 2.2 acres up on the Bruce and the rules are the exact same, though I've yet to hear about 2000 sq. ft as the minimum...usually 1000 sq. ft. This is why so many folks are trying to locate in unorganized townships...but it is only a matter of time until the local municipalities catch on to the potential $$ they could be charging. I built a 100 sq. ft Bunkie anyway...and made sure I was great pals with my neighbours...didn't have an issue for years...My wife and I recently had a 1000 sq. ft cabin put up, but just the shell and I will be building it out for the next five years...as $$becomes available. Unorganized Township options are a great, if you are in the position of not having to drive 6 - 10 hours to get there. We weren't prepared to do that...it's all about what fits for you. I live in Lambton County (Sarnia area) and can get to my place in 3.5 hours.
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Rickson2
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2016 17:23
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Thank you for spending time on this KelVarnsen. I appreciate it. I will read through the document. And yes, 1050 is much better than 2000 SQ/FT/.
Take care.
Rick
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Rickson2
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2016 17:41
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Thank you to all that responded to my questions. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to offer up their knowledge about bylaws and such. You bought your land but you REALLY don't own your land. That's the part that just gets me to the boiling point. If I can't do the things I want to, then to hell with your property tax bills. Shove them up your bylaw holes.
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kane
Member
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2016 11:58
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Hello bushbunkie, and everyone,
I am new and am eying an unorganized property in NW Kapuskasing which is advertising as "you can build whatever and however many you want, I plan to live off grid on the property full time 5 years from now, and would like to start building a cabin and drill a well after my purchase, reading through many of the posts here, but am not able to fully understand, would septic still be required first in an unorganized township? can one just build a cabin and have composting toilet without septic system? and drill a well?
thank you
Quoting: bushbunkie This is why so many folks are trying to locate in unorganized townships...
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Rickson2
Member
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2016 19:02
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Hey Kane. I would say that an unorganized Twp is the best place to be. Contact Twp office (if there is one) and ask about bylaws. Surprises can hurt after purchase. I am not even allowed to park my camper trailer for a weekend on my 20 acres as it is considered "temporary habitation" with a first time fine upon conviction of maximum $25,000. These people apparently do not fool around.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2016 19:30
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Quoting: Rickson2 I am not even allowed to park my camper trailer for a weekend on my 20 acres as it is considered "temporary habitation" with a first time fine upon conviction of maximum $25,000.
OMG! That's insane! So, it's build a big place and live the "approved lifestyle" or you're not welcome to set foot on your land?! 
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FishHog
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2016 19:34
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Quoting: bushbunkie I live in Lambton County (Sarnia area) and can get to my place in 3.5 hours.
Me too. But my drive is 7 hours. Worth every minute once I'm there but it is a long drive
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Ontario lakeside
Member
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# Posted: 12 Apr 2016 23:53 - Edited by: Ontario lakeside
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We are just north of havelock. Our lot is zoned limited service residential because it is lake access. The minimum SF was 528. If I remember correctly a lot on the road had a 1000SF min. Our building inspector has been nothing but helpful and reasonable. We had a 100SF bunkie for several years before building our place with no issue. I know the inspector saw some of our neighbours bunkies when he was our to see us and has not caused any issues for them.
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Rickson2
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# Posted: 13 Apr 2016 07:20
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Hey Ont Lakeside.
That is great news to hear. I was planning to approach the building inspector with the trailer issue and see if we could simply pay fees or something reasonable to get around the 100 Ft/Sq building for a few years as we are not ready to build yet. And yes, we are on the road accessing the public boat launch so I hope they are reasonable about that as well. We camped for 2 years now but upon reading the bylaw it has scared the shit out of me almost literally.
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Rickson2
Member
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# Posted: 13 Apr 2016 07:20
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sorry....1000Ft/Sq...not 100
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