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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2021 08:29 - Edited by: WILL1E
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1. Do I need to buy a front door for the cabin that’s made specifically for 2x6 framing or does my door work and it’s just a matter of trimming it out differently?
2. I have a ton of 2x6’s left from framing the cabin. Instead of reloading the trailer, returning it to the store, picking new 2x4’s and hauling it back to the land I’m wondering if there are other downsides to using the 2x6’s I already have. I realize they are more $$ than a 2x4 and that I’ll loose ~2†in the room. Any other reasons not to? I planned on using 2 pocket doors and 1 regular swing door on the interior walls so that’s the only things I could think of that could be an issue.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2021 09:52
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I have found that the standard door/window extensions for even 2x4 framing that alreaty built into the window/door suck. They just wont fit as good as properly ripped and planed trim on site.
2x6 interior walls is prety odd. But since your going to be useing pocket doors I may use 2x6. It can give you more strength in a wall that may other wise be prety flimsy.
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Princelake
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2021 09:59
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Most places stock exterior doors for 2x6 walls. If they don’t 2x4 frame still works just need to build it out typically on the inside cause you want your bottom threshold to be in the right location.
Interior framing you can do 2x6 don’t see a point to it. You can buy 2x6 interior door jambs for this situation but don’t see a point.
I framed my cabin with 2x6s to get more insulation in the walls. It’s more expensive but will be worth it for the climate live in.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2021 10:35
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I would embrace 2X6 exterior stud walls, get proper door.
The 2X6 is nicer for walls with most of your indoor plumbing vents.
Advantage is better insulation. The cost from 2X4 to 2X6 (difference) isnt much overall and you will get it back in savings from added insulation.
Just trimming it out differently wont work, the door will be flush on the outside, but inset on the inside so you will have to build extensions and your door wont open fully as it will hit the framing on the hinge side.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2021 13:49
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech but inset on the inside so you will have to build extensions and your door wont open fully as it will hit the framing on the hinge side.
That is the biggest reason to never use a door meant for a 2x4 wall in a thicker exterior wall. For weather sealing it is best to install the exterior face aligned as it is meant, the exterior side of the framing. If the hinges are located at an inside corner where the door can only open 90 degrees or so then it is less of an issue.
No point in 2x6 interior walls in most builds. If we are talking about interior walls I'd hul the extra 2x6 back for 2x4's.
2x6 interior walls do make sense for pocket doors, but you would almost certainly have to special order one for 2x6 walls or take a 2x4 pocket door and "expand" the framing for the thicker wall yourself.
A 2x6 interior wall can also be best when running drain and vent plumbing. Or for an air duct chase
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2021 14:09 - Edited by: gcrank1
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Ime, making 'extension jams' is time consuming and futzy beyond belief.... Think of it this way, it is not rough carpentry, it is finish work, everything has to fit perfect and look good at the end as well as be airtight.
I did it because I got such a marvelous deal on windows. Saved considerable money but certainly not time.
This next set Im doing in odd thickness walls I have already in 6" jams that Im going to be cutting down, far easier than making extensions without a nice millwork shop on site.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2021 14:56
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Quoting: gcrank1 Ime, making 'extension jams' is time consuming and futzy beyond belief.... Think of it this way, it is not rough carpentry, it is finish work, everything has to fit perfect and look good at the end as well as be airtight.
Extension jams..that's the word I was looking for. Finish carpentry can be tedious but all you have to do is measure if you start with a plumb, level and square building.
Extension jams are easy to make. I typical rip them 1/8-1/4 over sized then plane on edge or sand smooth. Leaving them 1/8in proud of your interior finishes dosnt matter. Leaving them 1/8 short of your interior finishes means you will be leaving a nice gap to cawlk.
I built all the window sills, custom trim and any other trim work in my house. Once you get the process down it's very simple. Painting the trim actualy takes longer to me.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2021 15:24
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Rip, plane, sand, etc, all with nice, straight, flat lumber using good, proper tools with a nice, well lit workspace. Yeah that would have been a lot nicer to do!
At our off-grid cabin, outside on sawhorses with a genny and skillsaw....ummm...not so much.
I cant help but think about the old adage,"90% of the work is in the last 10% of the job".
And I dislike finish carpentry.....
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2021 19:07
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I did this same dance as HomeDepot and Lowes didn't carry a 34" exterior door for a 2X6 wall. I priced out the lumber and sill extension and was a little shocked it would add about $100 to the price.. So I called around and found a 34" prehung door for 2X6 walls that was actually cheaper than the HomeDepot 2x4 wall price.. Because it was prehung and exactly what I needed, I was able to install it by myself in about an hour!
CALL AROUND and get the right door.
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 18 Oct 2021 10:04
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1. I’m going to order or find one for 2x6 framing.
2. Sorry if I want clear on #2, I was asking in regards to interior wall framing.
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2021 17:32
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Some more questions.
3. Do I have to have 2 layers of fascia boards? Right now the roof sheathing is trimmed flush to the 2x board that’s nailed to the end of the rafter tails. Can I just nail the steel fascia trim to that board, install my drip edge and call it good?
4. What’s the board that gets nailed between the rafters above the doubled top plate called? This is the one that would keep the insulation from going outside and also what I need to add vents to for venting the roof? I have more questions about this board and want to reference it properly.
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2021 22:01
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Quoting: WILL1E 4. What’s the board that gets nailed between the rafters above the doubled top plate called? This is the one that would keep the insulation from going outside and also what I need to add vents to for venting the roof? I have more questions about this board and want to reference it properly.
You shouldn't use boards or plywood or osb. You need some sort of baffle. You can buy foam baffles at big box stores, but they suck. Very thin and almost impossible to install without breaking (imagine an foam egg container that is like 4 ft long).
I choose to use 3/4" EPS foam. I cut 1" spacers from that foam and glued them to the roof. The cut 14.5" pieces and used them to make 14.5" X 1"(deep) channels between the ceiling joists. That is why I used 2X8 joists.. So after I did that, I would still have space for R20 batt underneath that (then drywall).
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 07:59 - Edited by: WILL1E
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See in my picture where the top plate is and how you can see through to the outside. My sheathing stops at the top of the top plate, so i need to fill that space in. Don't you typically put a board in here?
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 08:03
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Ahh, didn't realize they made these with the baffle thing on the one end.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 09:37
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As to the homedepot entry door. I have a 8-9yr old fiberglass one from HD in my house. Its bowed out from the lock about 1/4in at the top and bottom. It's been like that for about 4yrs and it's going to need to be replaced very soon. The bottom door seal didnt even last 2yrs.
Now my back door is steel with I believe a wood core that I got from a window and door company 1hr 20min away, it cost about $50 more than the HD door and is by far a better door. I will never be buying another big box store entry door again.
Also when you put your door in wrap the door jam with aluminum. The least exposed wood the better.
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Grizzlyman
Member
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 10:38
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Quoting: WILL1E 4. What’s the board that gets nailed between the rafters above the doubled top plate called? This is the one that would keep the insulation from going outside and also what I need to add vents to for venting the roof? I have more questions about this board and want to reference it properly.
Do you Blocking?
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Nate R
Member
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 10:47 - Edited by: Nate R
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Depends. Heard it just called blocking, or bird blocks, etc.
I extended my sheathing about 3-4" above the top plates. (I had about 8" of space there.)
No boards for me. Then I cut 2" foam to go against the sheathing, and support my soffit baffles. I made soffit baffles out of 1" XPS foam, and cut 1 1/2" spacers/supports. Sealed it all in with spray foam, so cold soffit air doesn't short circuit the insulation, and the baffles themselves are R5, so they add to the insulation value.
Here's some pics of how I did mine:
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 11:23
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So if i use these vent chutes with baffles, i don't need to add any blocking or sheathing right? My vented soffit will keep the critters out and allow the air to pass into those chutes.
My rafters are 2x8. So i need to chase those chutes all the way to the ridge. They are probably what, 1-2" thick? So i would assume i would just use insulation for a 2x6 wall...so R-23 is the most i can get up there?
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 11:57
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Quoting: WILL1E So if i use these vent chutes with baffles, i don't need to add any blocking or sheathing right? My vented soffit will keep the critters out and allow the air to pass into those chutes. My rafters are 2x8. So i need to chase those chutes all the way to the ridge. They are probably what, 1-2" thick? So i would assume i would just use insulation for a 2x6 wall...so R-23 is the most i can get up there?
Correct on all accounts. However, if you price out those chutes you will see that they cost more than using foam. Plus foam will give you an extra R3. Of course foam is more work as you have to custom cut it (or buy 14.5" pieces for slightly more money).
NateR's install is pretty much perfect (even sealed with spray foam).
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Grizzlyman
Member
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 12:03
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Maybe someone with code experience can jump in… but I thought all rafters need to blocked…. Could be mistaken though. And gambrel may be different.
Also regarding blocking-what is going to keep the walls together? Are you putting rafter ties on? If so I would want to do that before any blocking. It looks like there’s one board right now doing the job for now in the open area.
I will also just add that in my experience blocking really strengthens and tightens the entire roof. I see you’ve sheeted already so not sure if it matters now but the roofs I have built have all gained a lot of structural integrity from blocking… the minute the blocking is done there’s no longer any wobble. Those have been simple gable roofs though.
Just my .02
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 13:15
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Quoting: Grizzlyman I will also just add that in my experience blocking really strengthens and tightens the entire roof. I see you’ve sheeted already so not sure if it matters now but the roofs I have built have all gained a lot of structural integrity from blocking… the minute the blocking is done there’s no longer any wobble. Those have been simple gable roofs though.
Gambrel is a bit strange on code as it seems some places don't allow it for human habitation.
Much of the reading and plans studying I have done, show no blocking at all. The Gambrel relies on the staggered sheathing to get its strength. I can attest to that as once the sheathing was on, all wobble was gone on my roof.
However, I am considering adding 2 2x4 perlins along the ridge. You loose a tiny bit of height, but it should add a ton of strength. They will be under the drywall, so who cares.
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 13:19
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Quoting: travellerw However, if you price out those chutes you will see that they cost more than using foam.
So I would need 3 chutes to do the space between between a set of rafters on 1 side of the roof. $9. A 4x8 sheet of 1.5" pink foam is $22 and i would need 2/3rds of sheet to do the same space, so $14. I realize i get extra insulation value from the foam route, but if i do like NateR and I have a 1.5" spacer for the air void plus the 1.5" sheet on top of those spacers, i loose 3" of rafter depth leaving only 4.25" for batt insulation since i have 2x8 rafters. Pink foam is R7 and i would have to use 2x4 insulation which is R-15, so i would be at R-22 vs chute trays and R23.
Am i missing something?
Quoting: Grizzlyman Maybe someone with code experience can jump in… but I thought all rafters need to blocked…. Could be mistaken though. And gambrel may be different.
I would have to do this after i installed the trays and probably use 2x6's. Wouldn't tie to the sheathing but would connect the rafters.
Quoting: Grizzlyman Also regarding blocking-what is going to keep the walls together? Are you putting rafter ties on? If so I would want to do that before any blocking. It looks like there’s one board right now doing the job for now in the open area.
The loft is 10' deep and full width, so i assumed the loft floor joist would tie that end together. That board you see going across is nailed just below the top plate...that's about halfway for the non-lofted area. So from the last loft joist to that board is about 11' and that board to the wall is another 11'. Think i need more or i need rafter ties?
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Nate R
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 13:36
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I think Grizz was saying you could use 1/2" foam.
I used 1" foam, and cut the spacers 1.5" wide.
Most chutes are set up for 1".
Also, last I looked, Menards was short on R23 mineral wool insulation.... I bought up some of the last stock a couple weeks ago, and R30 wool in a 23" width was out of stock for 12 weeks...... I'm using R38 fiberglass in the ceiling now with R19 batts on top of the R38 where they fit. Also doing R21 fiberglass in most of the walls, using the R23 mineral wool in some key areas.
Don't forget, you CAN compress fiberglass insulation, it just reduces R value, but better than leaving extra space, usually.
See here: https://dcpd6wotaa0mb.cloudfront.net/mdms/dms/Residential%20Insulation/10017857/10017 857-Building-Insul-Compressed-R-Value-Chart-Tech-Bulletin.pdf
So, if I were you, I'd just use 1" foam, and 1" spacers.
You have 7 1/4", right?
So, 2 inches gone for the air space and foam, and you're at R5, leaving you 5 1/4" for fiberglass. Throw some R21 batts in there, probably R19 or 20 with the slight compression, and you're at R24 or 25 total.
Or, use 1/2" foam, and the 6 1/4" R19 batts (Cheaper batts....), and you're at R21 or so total, but for less cost, too.
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Nate R
Member
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 13:38
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Make sure whatever you settle on you can get! Much of the wider glass is special order... Some takes a week to get, some longer, some less. I know Marinette stocks rolls of unfaced R19 in the 6 1/4" thickness, 23" wide.....
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 13:45
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Quoting: WILL1E So I would need 3 chutes to do the space between between a set of rafters on 1 side of the roof. $9. A 4x8 sheet of 1.5" pink foam is $22 and i would need 2/3rds of sheet to do the same space, so $14. I realize i get extra insulation value from the foam route, but if i do like NateR and I have a 1.5" spacer for the air void plus the 1.5" sheet on top of those spacers, i loose 3" of rafter depth leaving only 4.25" for batt insulation since i have 2x8 rafters. Pink foam is R7 and i would have to use 2x4 insulation which is R-15, so i would be at R-22 vs chute trays and R23. Am i missing something?
I used 3/4 EPS @ $13/sheet. Then used 1" spaces for a total of 1.75" of space, leaving 5.5" of space for batt!
Quoting: WILL1E The loft is 10' deep and full width, so i assumed the loft floor joist would tie that end together. That board you see going across is nailed just below the top plate...that's about halfway for the non-lofted area. So from the last loft joist to that board is about 11' and that board to the wall is another 11'. Think i need more or i need rafter ties?
Definitely.. You have 22 feet of wall supported by a single rafter tie. Plus your top plate is only doubled up. I don't think that is strong enough to withstand pushout.
To give you an idea, on mine. Our loft is 16ft of a total 28ft building. That leaves 12ft of unsupported wall. I have a triple top plate that is glued and nailed, but I don't think that is enough. I will be installing 2 stainless steel cables spaced evenly to act as ties in that area.
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 13:55
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I want unfaced batts/rolls for the ceiling right?
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Nate R
Member
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 14:24
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What's your ceiling material plan?
Ideally you want an airtight ceiling plane.....then it doesn't matter, really.
The more I think about it, you REALLY want an airtight ceiling plane if you're going to do chutes all the way up......moisture brought in by air leakage can dry through foam, but very slowly. You'd rather not have that moisture in there at all..
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 14:56
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Quoting: Nate R What's your ceiling material plan?
Ha!!! Haven't thought that far ahead. Worse case, drywall...best case, some sort of T&G or shiplap.
I'm doing vented roof because that's what i read and was told on here based on my decision to do a steel roof. So i need to get the air into the sofits and up to the ridge, either chutes or foam built. I assume when you say air tight, that air passage needs to be sealed from the insulation?
Aside from the insulation type, i thought i had to do a plastic vapor barrier before whatever i choose to use for the ceiling material.
I'm all ears on what i should be doing here, so fire away!
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 16:23
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Quoting: WILL1E I'm doing vented roof because that's what i read and was told on here based on my decision to do a steel roof. So i need to get the air into the sofits and up to the ridge, either chutes or foam built. I assume when you say air tight, that air passage needs to be sealed from the insulation?
There is some debate here... Some people say the passages need to be sealed, other say no, just separate so air can flow up the channel easily.
I have spoke to a few "experts" and they are on the not sealed fence (at least in cold climates). Their position was that there is no way to have a completely sealed structure. Air and moisture will get in no matter what. You need to have a path for it to get out. Having the passage not sealed from the insulation will allow moisture to get out (albeit at the expense of some insulation value). This position was based on their experience building SUPER tight houses in the last 10 years. Even with air to air exchangers, many of those houses are experiencing mold, rot and wet insulation issues.
Based on those conversations, they steered me to not sealing the foam baffles, but just having them be a tight fit in the cavity. Also traditional batt and vapour barrier after that.
Like you, I'm still on the fence of ceiling material. I really don't want to do drywall as the taping will suck that high up. I'm not keen on tongue and groove though... I am actually considering metal roofing material, but its pretty high cost wise (would be a cool look on the inside and no firecode issues)... We will see.. Another option I'm looking into is getting 14 or 16ft drywall boards to reduce the butt seams (1 butt seam in the middle of the building). Then just doing batons on the horizontal seams. I just don't know yet.
I will be out this weekend to finish the foam baffles and rough in the stairs. I'm sure I will have a decision by the end of the weekend.
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Nate R
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2021 16:36
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BSC would say the ceiling needs to be sealed between the insulation and the living space. That's what I was referring to. If you put poly on the warm side of the insulation, tape the seams, tape it to the top plates, and seal around any electrical penetrations, you should be fine.
Point being, as long as you don't just have T&G boards and unfaced insulation above that with nothing between, you'll be OK. Just air seal that ceiling plane!
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