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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2020 15:04
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Single or 2 stage regulators should end up with the same pressure of propane after and feed your propane appliances. 2 stage can be a little more consistent in an exact pressure but I'm surprised you can tell the difference on any applicance.
I don't see why you would need both, but it will probably work. Sure shouldn't be needed.
If the 2 stage isn't working properly, I think I'd try just the single before I'd try both.
And if your pots are getting sooty, you should be able to adjust the burn on your stove top to get a cleaner (blue) flame
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2020 15:14
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Hmm, the way I thought ICC explained it last page was that the fist stage dropped it down to 10-12 psi and the second down to .4, which I figured was the reason the L5 and cooktop aren't as hot now that I have them on the two stage, which the wall heater requires.
Is that incorrect?
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2020 16:42
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technically you can get different pressure regulators for specialized applications, but most household items run off the same pressure, but regulators will lower your BTU output, which is more what I think your problem is, and why your stove is running lower flame. Its not so much less pressure its just your exceeding the BTU capacity of the regulator your using.
Perhaps your furnace requires a specialized pressure level and is specific to that application, but its not that common with household appliances as most people hook them up to an existing regulator.
At least that is my understanding and experience with them.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2020 18:46
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Thanks Fish. I found the spec for the L5 water heater, .04 psi, and the Williams wall heater, 11-13 wc, which I believe are the same thing. Didn't find one for the cook top but it's probably the same. So the L5 should work, and it doesn't require any more gas than the wall heater I'm sure. Maybe it's just the colder air temp but I don't remember not making scalding water even in winter.
I'll play around with it some more.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2020 19:09
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If the device is made to be used in a residential application or inside an RV, then it should use the standard propane pressure of 11" WC. (10 to 11"). This is standardized.
All regulators do have a maximum BTU rating. If the regulator is not rated to supply what is needed by the appliance(s) that are running, then there will be problems. Problems can also occur if the regulator is faulty of course, or if there is a restriction in the piping.
A device called a manometer is used to check pressure at a point of use fitting. It only reads pressure, and cannot verify rate of flow.
Ranges, designed for residential or commercial use also have a small regulator built into them, at or near the point the gas line is connected. Sometimes it may be intergral with the overn control. Those have a setting for propane and a setting for natural gas.
Quoting: paulz Hmm, the way I thought ICC explained it last page was that the fist stage dropped it down to 10-12 psi and the second down to .4, which I figured was the reason the L5 and cooktop aren't as hot now that I have them on the two stage, which the wall heater requires.
IF the two stage regulator is the type that is factory assembled the input connects to the tnk snd the outlet supplies the 11" WC. There is no place where one can access the higher pressure.
With a two separate regulator system like I have on the home and shop the pipe between the first and second regulator has the higher pressure, but that is not directly used by anything. All the propane goes through both regulators before being used.
IF the cooktop and the L5 are now having a problem with low flame it sounds like not enough volume of gas is reaching them. That can also happen in cold weather when running off small cylinders.... 20 to 40 lbs.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2020 20:16
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If two appliances are working good on separate regulators then you connect them up with a shared one I would look at the new regulator. You could also put the old regulator back on the appliance and see if things go back to normal. Then I would take the same regulator that worked good prior and hook it to your shared system. If it works again I would say it's the dual stage regulator.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2020 20:32
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Well I just cooked dinner and washed dishes. I swapped in a fresh 40lb. tank, even though that has never been a problem in the past. 50 degrees out.
Definitely lower heat on both stove and water heater. I tried turning on the second stove burner while the first one was on, no change. Wall heater off, but it feels as normal. I actually kind of like the stove now, burn less food.. The water heater is outside right above the propane tank. I could tee off the tank and run it's old regulator to it. Do want hotter water again
Thanks for the tips.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2020 05:44
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Could you have turned on the tank to fast with the new empty system and locked out the over flow valve thing in the tank? Not sure of the technical name for it.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2020 12:03
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Ew, maybe..
I did remember something. I used the two stage regulator on the wall heater not because it needed it. I bought it for a propane generator I was given (and have never used yet) that wouldn't run on a single stage. I grabbed it when I put in the wall heater. So the plan is to try a single stage at the tank, but as usual, I need a different fitting. Be a few days.
It's funny, guys start out in life with no plumbing fittings. Then the need to fix or install something and he buys a few fittings at the hardware store. Hopefully one works, and the rest go in the stash. This goes on over the years, the stash grows and grows, and pretty soon you think you must have what you need for a job. But you never do.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2020 12:24
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You only have in stock things you dont use...that's why there there.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2020 20:23
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Ime sgl stage vs 2 stage, anything that runs on one will run on the other IF the output is the correct WC and volume of gas for the device.
The first stage regulation is for better, more stable pressure to the 2nd stage (which would be the sgl stage in the 'simple set up') and safer if the final/2nd stage regulator fails.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2020 20:16
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I have a leak. Walked into the cabin today after a couple hours in the shop to the faint smell of propane. Got the electronic sniffer out and sure enough, goes off around the valve I plumbed for the wall heater. Sprayed it with soap, no bubbles. Held a flame around it, nothing. Hoping it's a joint and not the valve. How do I isolate the source?
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 07:41
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if soapy water won't show it I'm thinking your not in the right spot. Try a little more soap in your water so it foams more and make sure your tank is on when you do this test. Professional leak detector foams more than soapy water, but I've never had an issue with just using soapy water.
Or you could fab up a pressure test nipple (pump your lines to a higher pressure with a bike pump and try again)
If you can smell it, your soapy water should show it if your in the right spot.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 09:39
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Dont hold a flame around it paulz.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 10:38
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Too late.. took care of my nose hair though.
Two things.. the soapy water worked. I had been using a bottle of spray cleaner (like 409). When I mixed some Dawn in a bowl with a rag, into a thick soapy mix, applied with a rag, it showed right up. Just a slow trickle of bubbles.
The other thing I should have realized is LP sinks. The leak was above where the sniffer was loudest. Unfortunately at the T, first fitting coming in, so had to disassemble several other joints. It had loosened up when I torqued the attached pipes.
Got it all back together and it still sets off the sniffer a bit. Can't smell anything or get any bubbles. I'm going to work in the shop again today and see if I smell it again when I get back. Fittings are dead nuts tight, I used the white teflon tape which I guess is wrong but has never let me down before.
Thanks guys.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 11:28
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Gooey pipe dope for gas is better, imo.
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Fanman
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 11:56
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White teflon tape should not be used for gas. They make a yellow tape which specifially is made for gas.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 14:48
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Teflon is never good on oil and gas. Lock tight makes a good in a tube that works well on propane fittings. Cant remember the specific number.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 14:57 - Edited by: gcrank1
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A flame for gas leaks? Enlightening.....
I just know you said that to see what kind of a rise you'd get, lol.
The yellow tape is quite a bit thicker, same material as the white, and the yellow makes it easily visible as being code compliant when required. Not expensive so it should be in the toolbox anyway.
But the gooey is better. Just have some paper towels handy, no sense spreading it around on a grease rag.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 15:01
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Quoting: gcrank1 Gooey pipe dope for gas is better, imo.
The Oatey product with teflon is what we have used for all gas fittings. No leaks. There is a special gas approved teflon tape as was noted but I strongly prefer the Oatey paste even though it is more messy.
Paul, using a flame to find a propane leak is about the same as using a flame to see where the gasoline smell is coming from under your truck. You wouldn't do that would you? You are lucky it's only the eyebrows. I have a one-eyed cousin who used to have two working eyes just like I do.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2020 10:19 - Edited by: paulz
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Thanks guys. Happy to report I now have hot water and stove again, and no leaks. I had tried a single stage regulator out of the pile, it made no difference, even connected straight to the L5, bypassing my new plumbing. Started to think maybe the L5 took a dump so I hooked up it's original regulator, which I had been avoiding because it has a non-removable rubber hose. That did the trick, scalding water again, so I connected it to the new plumbing, got a hot stove again and as a bonus the wall heater is cranking out the BTUs much higher than with the two stage it had.
So I'm stuck with the rubber hose regulator for now, which has never been a problem. It looks to be small diameter but runs everything at once fine. No idea why the first single stage regulator I tried (with NPT output) doesn't work. It's a larger diameter but I don't see any ratings on any of them.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2020 11:51
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Might check the inlet hole size on the regulator fitting (pol?) to the tank, they vary, often less than the hose ID. But that is high pressure coming into the reg, still, I gotta wonder.
I have a bunch of reg's off bbq grills, and those big grills use a lot of btu's. A reg off one off those is likely to work better for you than one off a little grill. You can mount one of those off a 10-15psi 1st stage reg at the tank and have an effective 2 stage.
Or,
Why not add up the btu's of all your stuff and talk to your local propane supplier about regulator and pipe sizing for what you are doing and get a proper 2 stage reg (they arent horribly expensive) and hard line with copper to your cabin piping/manifold?
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2020 16:43
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Thanks, well It's working great now and I'm not worried about the rubber line. I turn the gas off whenever I'm not there and the only critters I have are banana slugs.
I may be going to 100lb. tanks soon, at which point I can rig up a new regulator and hard line.
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