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Brettny
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2021 12:04
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Wait a minute. Isnt your bank 24v? How can you use the DC output on the generator? It's only 12v
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2021 12:29
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Thanks for all the repleys guys.....
The honda plugs into the inverter full time, when its running for any reason, it is charging the batteries at a 40a rate. It does a good job, and that's one thing that I'm happy with.
This inverter does have a large draw, I'm not sure how much, but didn't think it was that high. Maybe it is, so the fridge off last night was fine,as far as food staing cold/frozen. Now tonight I'll turn off the inverter and see if I still have full batteries. If not, It's the batteries. If still lots of power it's a crazy draw from the inverter.
Thanks for all the help, feels like I'm getting somewhere now........
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2021 12:34
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Yes 8 6volt golf cart in 2 strings in series
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ICC
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2021 13:15
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Quoting: Brettny It's only 12v
Ooops. My error.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2021 13:16
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Quoting: bc thunder This inverter does have a large draw
What make/model?
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bc thunder
Member
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2021 15:41
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"MPP solar all in one"
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Brettny
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2021 15:50
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That makes sence "all in one".
You may need to work on keeping them charged better. Some where there was a battery state of charge vs cycles chart. At 50% your really beating them up prety good. I beat mine up prety good and discharge every trip we make there..but if we make 12 trips a year that's alot so at 500 cycles we are looking at quite a long life and for 4 days a week they are sitting at float.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2021 16:18
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Yes Brettny, that's what I'm starting to think. I'll have better idea tomorrow morning after it' been off all night. But really I need to wait for the next cold morning to be 100% percent.
I'll keep them charged more, and keep the min SOC higher as well.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2021 16:56
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Idle power consumption is 38.4 watts, 921.6 watts per day. I think I understand pretty well now what's going on lol.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2021 18:41
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I try to match the inverter I use to the amps draw I have going on, and 'upsize' it by 20-30%. That really minimized my inverter overhead compared to always running a very much too large inverter.
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bc thunder
Member
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2021 18:51
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This is an all in one unit, no mixing and matching possible. I might have to buy 1 more panel to compensate for the idle draw.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2021 20:02
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Quoting: bc thunder dle power consumption is 38.4 watts, 921.6 watts per day. I think I understand pretty well now what's going on lol.
That seams very high. If that's the real draw have you looked at trying to get that draw lower some how. Stand by draw was a big selling factor to me on my inverter.
Adding more pannels may help some but only help on sunny days. Adding more pannels and another string of battery will help every day.
I guess this is an issue with the all in one systems. Your now stuck with it and cant change out just an inverter, CC or charger.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 06:21
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Well turned off the inverter last night @25.5 soc
Turned it on this morning it's @ 25.3 soc
Mystery solved..................
I'm very happy with the "all in one"
1)very simple for the newbie
2)super compact for small cabin(lack of wall space)
3)hooked it up myself (I'm no electrician lol) in about 2hrs tottal. panels, batteries, and inverter.
BUT
1)this idle draw is crazy
2)fans run constantly and very loud
Thanks again guys for all your help in trouble shooting this thing. I look forward to us all doing it again in 2 weeks with whatever my next issue is lol.......
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 10:27
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I am not sure about MPP but I know the Growatt AIO's have programmable standby / powersave modes that can cut the standby power... Sounds like you are not using eco/powersave modes and running full on 7/24.
There is of course a Gotcha... When inverters use powersave modes in this kind of setup, they send a short "sense" pulse out every 10 seconds or so to sense if anything is demanding power and if so, power up & provide power. A Fridge for example will be fine with this and trigger a start up, but an LED Light or other device below a specific Watt Threshold will not trigger the startup. And a BUG issue... not as in critter... With new LED lights below so low powered, if the Inverter goes into Save Mode while LED is on (but not enough draw collectively in general) the lights will Blink with every sense pulse.
Eco/Powersave works BUT any LED displays will be "blinkered" so clock on coffee maker useless. LED lights if left on will blink with every pulse UNLESS there is a collective amp draw to wake inverter.... (my case 18W draw to wake up)
I would suggest reading the docs for PowerSave / Eco modes and "tinker" with it and see if it is something you can live with.
NOTES for other readers:
The majority of proper Inverter/Chargers and AIO's (All in Ones) have some form of Eco / Power Save modes. Some are better than others TBH.
*proper: Meaning not including Car Inverters and such.
All units have a "Standby" power consumption. Sometimes this can be quite high. It is IMPORTANT to factor this in for your daily consumption. Even within the same Brand, the various models will have different consumption ratings. Again, the quality of the Equipment (Grade/Tier) will be reflected in consumption & efficiency specs.
NB: Size of Inverter (Watts Output) does affect how much StandBy power it will consume as well. Bigger Inverter will use more.
The fans are Variable Speed I believe in all MPP AIO's so they should change speed relative to temp.... BTW: Many people complain about the fans (not just MPP but in general) They really do not use "the best" obviously. GOOD NEWS, good decent Silent Axial Box Fans with Ball Bearings are available that can be swapped in, they look just like other PC Box Fans but it's what's inside & blade pitch that makes the difference.
Brands to look for: Orion, CUI, AC-Infinity, CoolTron
! Double Check Specs, they also make Sleeve Bearing fans (noisy & cheaper). Ohhh BTW: Some of the above offerings are Aluminium bodies & fan blades so a bit more $ but better IMO.
Hope it helps, Good Luck.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 11:00 - Edited by: travellerw
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I spent 5 years living off-grid on solar power. 3 years with lead acid batteries and 2 years with LiFePO4. .
As gcrank1 said, matching your inverter to the power draw is key to lowering the overhead. Another issue is that many of the "cheaper" pure sine wave inverters use a very inefficient circuit with high standby draw (the Chinese have copied over and over). Try to pick a brand name device with a rated standby draw.
If it was me, I would add a second smaller inverter (with a very low standby draw) and a automatic switching box. %90 of the time you run the smaller inverter and only turn the big inverter on when you need a large draw (kettle, hob, ect). Or simply abandon that units inverter function and just use it as a charger.
I also recommend you get a good battery monitor. The Victron BMV-700 is a good product and a good price.
While adding a solar panel will help get the power back, it won't help with the cycle life on your battery bank. Reducing the depth of cycle on your batteries is key to a long life.
One final thought I will leave you with is the physics of actually charging a FLA battery bank. You have 8 6V golf cart batteries in a 24V config. Each battery is rated at 200ah, you need 4 to make 24V. So you essentially have a 24V 400ah battery bank. If you draw that bank down to %50 SOC, then you have 100A @24v to put back in. With a 40A charger that will take about 3 hours (factoring efficiency losses and holding the battery at %100 to prevent sulphate) to fully recharge. Getting back to %100 and having some float is also key to a long FLA life (not so for LiFePO4). Again, the battery monitor will help with this as it has an algorithm that tracks all this and just shows you a nice simple "battery gauge".
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 11:27 - Edited by: gcrank1
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Well said Trav.
My 12v 1000w psw inverter was a standby Hog, worked ok when I had a healthy 4 x 12v/130ah bat-bank but not when 2 of those bats had aged out.
Rather than buy more expensive storage I re-evaluated our elec 'needs' offgrid and went with a 300w psw inverter. It runs the led lights (all the lights we want), the fans, usb and tool-pack chargers; ie, the light draw stuff that is most of our use. For the big draw stuff, which is short usage, the 1700/2000 inv/gen is used. Ive been running this whole past year on 2x 12v/100ish ah well used bats (200ah's/100 max usable to 50% soc) that I basically only use 25-30% of capacity from and they recharge the next morning by 10:30-11am. Those old, well used FLA bats are still running strong.
By going this way way a game changer for us in user friendliness and expense. Ymmv, but I didnt, and still dont, want to build a huge, expensive solar-elec system that would power Everything seamlessly as in grid hook up. Not that the grid-type power wouldnt be nice, but this is our cabin, it isnt needed, we have home for that. The cabin system sounds, and is, small scale, but it is More Than Adequate.
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bc thunder
Member
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 11:29
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Steve, I haven't seen any power save mode other than you can turn off the led display. Maybe I misunderstood, and I'll checkthat out again.
Trav, I like that battery monitor, I'll look into that also.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 12:37 - Edited by: Steve_S
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asa BTW, my original Yiyen APC-3024 3000W/24V Pure Sine Low Frequency inverter pulled 38W idle, powersave dropped that to 18W (but the blinks were "evil"). This is a Value Grade (3rd Tier) product.
When I upgraded I bought a Samlex EVO-4024, 4000W Pure Sine Low Frequency (Tier-1 Product) and it idles at 20W and has programmable power save thresholds that can drop it to 8 Watts stand-by. (still don't like the pulses).
Did a quick search on MPP Powersave Eco Mode and it seems over the years they used different terms - Gotta love Consistency, sheesh - and it appears that various models do it differently. So the latest docs for your Particular Model & Revision may have the answer for you.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 12:58
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This unit has no power saver mode, the 12v system does, but not the 24v system.
Just have to take the good with the bad on these all in one units......
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 13:36 - Edited by: gcrank1
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In that case I like the recommendation to use another, lower watt inverter to more closely match your real draw/usage rather than uselessly overdrawing your expensive bat-bank repeatedly.
Or at least just turning the AIO off for overnight, which only works when you are there.
Dont remember, do you only have the AIO running when you are there? I typically have no inverter hooked up until we arrive, it is just the array/scc keeping the bat-bank charge up. LA bats like, no love, to be kept fully charged rather than cycled.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 15:39
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I don't think you can use another inverter, as everyting is all in one unit. It's a box about the size of a shoe box. If you opened it you would void your warenty right there on the spot.
As for turning the unit off at night, it's a pain, but doable. And I think I am going that route till atleast spring. As for turning it off when I go home, I live here full time, and would like to have at least enough power to be somewhat, reasonably comfortable.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 15:45
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Quoting: gcrank1 In that case I like the recommendation to use another, lower watt inverter to more closely match your real draw/usage rather than uselessly overdrawing your expensive bat-bank repeatedly.
I thought about the lower wattage inverter too. But you would be turning off the CC too. Even just turning the thing off every night kind of takes the convenience out of it.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 17:35
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Quoting: bc thunder As for turning the unit off at night, it's a pain, but doable. And I think I am going that route till atleast spring. As for turning it off when I go home, I live here full time, and would like to have at least enough power to be somewhat, reasonably comfortable.
Many inverters have a port where you can attach a remote switch (usually an RJ45 plug(old telephone)). Its a simple low voltage signal circuit. You can put a switch close to your bed for instance and run the wire back to the inverter. Then just switch it off before you go to sleep.. Or you could get fancy and use something like an Arduino with a timer to turn it off at a specific time (actually I think a standard timer relay would work and is easily available on ebay). You can really get creative and there is a million ways to do this stuff. I have seen so many solutions that worked for people.
I will warn you.. If you are cycling your batteries over %40 (below %60 SOC) every day, and they are just bog standard golf cart batteries, then you will have a failure in a year or so. A single cell failure will take down an entire string. It is one of the disadvantages of a 24V system. 12 6v batteries are really required to have a 3 string redundancy.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 17:58
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I usally run them down close to 50%, but have never went lower. Probbly going to be closer to 55% going forward......
As for the switch, it's a good idea, but the unit is only 3 feet the bed, so no real problem.
I dought I do it till spring, but I think I'll get 1 more panel, and four more batteries. Why stop now, it's only money. $$$ $$$
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travellerw
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 18:28
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Quoting: bc thunder I usally run them down close to 50%, but have never went lower. Probbly going to be closer to 55% going forward...... As for the switch, it's a good idea, but the unit is only 3 feet the bed, so no real problem. I dought I do it till spring, but I think I'll get 1 more panel, and four more batteries. Why stop now, it's only money. $$$$$$
%50 SOC everyday is a hell of a beating for FLA batts. Its fine in an RV or cabin where it happens only on weekends, but daily is super tough on them. As I said, I lived 3 years full time with a family of 5 on FLA. I also consulted to other people and replaced a whole bunch of banks and solar installs over my 5 years.
The batteries will be a good investment. It will extend the life of your bank by years. An panel might be a good investment, but I would probably look at the install first. Are you panels in parallel or series? Do you have a quality MPPT solar charger (not a budget Chinese brand). What size cable between your panels and solar controller? Doing tweaks like that can actually yield more net power than adding a panel to a non-optimized system.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 20:14
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Either way with next to no sun the only crutch is more batteries or running a generator to charge them. The good thing about more batteries is they work when you have sun and they work when you need to run the generator. More pannels only work with more sun. If it's one or the other get the batteries.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2021 22:10 - Edited by: gcrank1
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To run another inverter you only have to hook it up to the bat-bank and 'plug' your cabin cord/wiring into it. The AIO can be shut down after sun hours (the internal scc has nothing to do then) and you run off the other inverter with lower overhead?
If the high draw AIO is only running when you have sun the sun is running it as well as charging (hopefully) the bat-bank. By not depleting the bat-bank so deeply after charging hours you dont have so much to try to make up the next day, big plus.
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bc thunder
Member
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 05:58
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Trav;
After reviewing Brettny's soc graph, looks like I'm closer to 60% being my min. soc. But your point is well taken.........
Gman;
I appreciate the brainstorming. It's something to consider, but I think by the time I hard wire a new inverter, and cc, and more cables, and some sort of transfer switch, so I can still charge with the aio, I'll be well on my way to 4 new batteries cost wise.
Brettny;
I tend to agree with you here, more batteries, or run the genertor more.
One more idea to ponder could be to buy the smaller 12v AIO to run in winter. Pain to convert to 12v but it's basically G's idea simpified.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 10:38
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Just something to add re charging with genset.
I started with Big Lead and when charged by Genset from 50% to 100%, it took 12 hours @50A for that bank (24V/428AH gross).
Now with LFP, my last charge (910AH online) ran 8 hours @ 80A to go from 15% to 100% and that for me is also 5 days reserve from 100% (not including lead bank).
Later on, when you are looking to move in FT you may want to consider LFP batteries. Good News on that front, in 2022 IP for LFP opens and will be more readily available for less, some factory space is already going up in various countries (not just for EV's btw).
Volthium a Canadian Company (out of Quebec) may worth a look at and ponderance before you go getting super deep. See here: https://volthium.com/en/batteries/
PS, the Rack mounted & Smart ones can directly communicate with several brands of AIO including Growatt.
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bc thunder
Member
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 11:04
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That is another good idea Steve.
What would you guess would be a good size battery bank for me???
I know you kept your lead as a backup, but if I were to go this route, should I just beat these bateries up, for all their worth?
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