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gcrank1
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 11:24 - Edited by: gcrank1
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Fwiw, If I had your bat-bank Id be treating them as nice as I could for the longest life but not adding to them, just saving up for LFP which over 10yrs will be more cost effective, perhaps by a fair good bit o' change.
Dont overcomplicate the idea of a smaller inverter for non-sun use, they can be pretty much plug&play. I dont have any experience with an AIO but it appears it stays hooked to the array and gen-set? No need to change that, and if it auto-switches between those inputs to charge the bats thats easy.
The output 'transfer' to cabin of AIO or the smaller wattage inverter isnt a big, complicated or expensive deal, imo. Once you have the 'switchable output' you can run the AIO whenever something is charging the bats AND run the cabin. When no charging is happening (end of sun/no gen running) switch the AIO off and run off the bats via the stand alone inverter.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 11:37 - Edited by: gcrank1
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Another thought on bat-chem.
In my preferred 25-30% soc use with FLA to not abuse/kill them the LFP increases my usable watt-hrs by 3x with a similar AH bat-bank, not just 2x.
The LFP's should live 2x as long, maybe more.
Can use LFP below freezing but Do Not Charge below freezing. But they can be kept indoors with the moderated/warm temps so freezing may not be an issue.
Pretty much No maintenance.
Or off gassing.
Can dump huge amps for start-up devices and also recharge at huge amps.
And if discharged fairly deeply they arent harmed by not being recharged right away like happens with FLA.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 11:49
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Dunno if you noticed, they have packs with warmers and without... I would not have a second thought about Volthium...
Bank Size... I honestly do not remember your details to that exent.
I worked out that I use 3.5kWh on average a day (no AC needed, no Electric Heating) and I can squeeze that down if I want to. Got 428AH of lead so 214AH useable. 3.5kWh @ 25.6V = 136.72 Ah. I managed to get 3 Days out of that bank and winter charging when low solar was using too much Genset !
So within one day, I use an average of 140AH on a 24V system... 25.6V is the LFP Nominal Voltage @ 3.200Vpc) so my Full LFP Bank (1190AH) gives me 8 days from "my designated 100%" and the lead gives me 1.5 days (now that they aged).
HERES THE RUB !
I have Rolls Surettes, the S-550 /L16-HC are selling for $400 a pop, X8 = 3200 + HST/GST of course. {Just noticed prices went up Nastily}
That give 214AH useable !
I built all my LFP Packs. Not Hard !
24V/280AH Pack, with 300A BMS with Solid State Contactors and 250A MRBF Fuse cost me about 2200 Cdn. THAT is 280AH useable ! (Grade A+ Matched Cells) AND BEST PART they'll last 10 Years+.
My Rolls Surettes already have "Muddy Acid" after 6 years, so they are ending and going to recycle next spring. Grins, old lead heads know what that means....
BTW, there are a few companies "Assembling" and some importing prebuilts from China that try to sell as a Canadian Product... BEWARE ! Volthium IS the Real Deal or you can check out Rolls Surette LFP (better be seated !)
To me, my simple and irrelevant opinion... I would use up the Lead to get the most out of them and start prepping/saving to get LFP (which you can put in your house BTW) and looking forward.
BTW: Sadly far too many folks do NOT KNOW IT but Many Companies are building "PowerWall" systems & packs... Tesla may have started that but it did not end there. LG, Panasonic, GE, plus Inverter companies like Victron, Growatt (YES GW) make Power wall systems to integrate...
Duracell US just released their latest LFP Powerwalls... WELL PRICED TOO !
https://www.duracellenergybank.com/
5 Years ago Creeky was yelling Lead is Dead ! The costs were still too high and we all know how the whole EV Pack thing went down. LFP was always cheaper but was harder to get "then" but now, being cobalt free and much more and a very stable chemistry the prices have reached a point where "Lead is Dead" is valid.
I have previously posted links to my DIY LFP Pack instructions and details which I can repost if desired.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 12:43
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Thanks for that, a lot of good info to ponder.
Honestly not sure yet what I'll do, but I now have some great options....
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Brettny
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 15:03
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Quoting: bc thunder That is another good idea Steve. What would you guess would be a good size battery bank for me??? I know you kept your lead as a backup, but if I were to go this route, should I just beat these bateries up, for all their worth?
You can add another string and keep the ones you have if you havent beat them up to well. I added another string to the 2 I had the year prior.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 15:28
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Well I just reread the manual, and I did find a power saving mode. Problem is it works too well, and won't power up anything I use in the cabin. Just lots of blinking lights lol.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 16:00
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Quoting: bc thunder Problem is it works too well, and won't power up anything I use in the cabin. Just lots of blinking lights lol.
ROFLOL, gee where'd I hear that hehe....
There is likely an Amp Threshold or Trigger Amps - maybe in Watts that you can program, look for it, terminology can be tricky, as you've likely noticed.
Now a fridge for instance should be more than enough to trigger the start-up. Now your gonna love this, Try a 40W Incandescent or a 60W if that doesn't work (if you have some). Any heavier load device though had better trigger it or something else is not programmed right.
Again I don't own GW AIO's but going with basic & common stuff but that varies a lot.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 17:04
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Hey Steve, on power saver mode nothing will come on, even loads over 100w
What I'm thinking, and please tell what you think, is I have a power bar coming from the ac outlet of the aio.
Maybe the light on that power bar is low draw and not letting power get through? Maybe change it for a bar sans a light?
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 18:17
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I doubt that a powerbar with LED light on it or not would make any difference... But I've seen some pretty weird shit in recent years !
I'm almost afraid to ask, the PowerBar is not directly to the AIO is it ? Properly, it should be wired with 12/2 to a small Square-D 4LQ100 Panel with 15A AC Breakers which then feed 14/2 to plugs. Breaker size depending on Wattage output of your AIO.
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ICC
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 18:47
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Sounds like the AIO unit has builtin receptacles; not a hard wired to a breaker sub panel type.
If so I don't see why a large load plugged into the power bar that is plugged into the AIO can not "trip" the power-saving and supply 120 VAC to the large load. That is what power saving is supposed to do.
The Outback inverters I have use a programmable sleep mode. They did a good job on the engineering as I can adjust it so even something as small as an LED night light is enough of a load to trip it to on.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2021 20:02
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Yes it"s direct to power cord. Its the only way I have seen them done. I'll change it out tomorrow and recheck the power saving mode.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2021 05:28
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My xantrex freedom x1200 also has a power save mode but my mini fridge isnt enough to turn it on. I cant remember the wattage of either.
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ICC
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2021 08:25
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bc thunder & brettny, do your fridges have electronic controls? Some of those systems do not draw enough power to activate the inverter from power save mode.
I ran into that way back when I installed the first Outback inverter in the truck camper conversion I had.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2021 08:44
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Ya the fridge controls are electronic.....
There is a way to hook the computer to the aio,and I beleive that gives you more control on the settings. I'm trying to figure that out now.
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ICC
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2021 09:09 - Edited by: ICC
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OK. When I was confronted with a microwave that had electronic controls and therefore would not activate the inverter I came up with a work around.
I found that a small led night night plugged into the 120 VAC outlet with the microwave, used enough power to turn on the inverter. I had wired the outlet for the microwave with an on-off switch. I had the microwave and the led night light plugged into the switched outlet. When I wanted to use the microwave I would flip on the outlet. The inverter would sense the load and turn on. I could then microwave and when finished, turn off the outlet and the inverter would go back to sleep if nothing else was on.
You could try something similar with the fridge. Use a power strip with a similar small led night light plugged into it. Also, plug the fridge power into the power strip. Turn the power strip on when you want the fridge to be operable. Turn it off id you don't want the fridge to run.
This would work for anything. I did the same thing with a small TV I had. Most TV's are big enough and draw sufficient power to wake the inverter; at least with the inverter I had.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2021 10:06
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The fridge @60 watts won't trip the ps mode, so you would need a constant draw of more than 60watts.
Problem is the inverter itself only draws 35watts, so a net savings, I think?
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ICC
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2021 11:09 - Edited by: ICC
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Oh.
Well, in my case I could trip the inverter to full on from sleep with a very small load. Turning the microwave and the TV completely off with a switched outlet saved much more standby power than the slight extra the led night light used when turned on.
I still do that at the cabin and in the bus/rv. Home runs all the time though, I use inverter stacking so only a single inverter is running most of the time.
I do have a few devices on switched outlets to cut their idle power use to zero... things that are not used much.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2021 14:31
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Just add something else to that fridge load in increments until you get it to trip from ps mode. At least then you will find the threshold.
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bc thunder
Member
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2021 15:23
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lol I hear ya, but I just don't have much elecrtonics lying around the cabin. I have drills and sawzalls ect.. in the shed,but nothing in the cabin. My smallest draw is my tv at 25watts, that would still be more than psmode.
Icc's idea is agood one for short duration uses, but not long, overnight uses......
I can't go buy a bunch of stuff and hope the draw comes out a little bit less.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2021 15:31
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The irony of buying an energy star fridge to save power, and now I'm upset it doesn't use enough lol
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2021 17:31
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So can you just easily 'toggle/hot button' between regular run and ps mode?
If you can just hit ps for overnight when the fridge doesnt need to run and back to regular in the morning.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2021 17:56
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Yes, but if nothing will run in psmode, I may as well just turn it off and save all power.
I think that's the best route at the moment.
On monday i can call the dealer and if he knows the ps draw, I can try to find a lesser draw to trip psmode.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 8 Nov 2021 15:18
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I dont believe my fridge has electronic controls. Its just a dorm fridge with separate top freezer.
Something else to think about is the loss you may get in in the charge controller. For instance my solar pannels are two full sized 29v 230w. I have never ever seen more than 390w going into the battery. That's full sun and pannels aimed directly at the sun. I only get full sun for about 2.5-3hrs durring the summer, we have alot of trees. I actualy get about the same daily wattage in the winter because no leafs.
Pic is from today. Early november, pannels in full sun but not totally aimed correctly. I'm loosing about 11W to the MPPT conversion. This is a 40a EPever BN series. I would put another pannel on the roof (I have 4 more) but theres no room on the roof.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 8 Nov 2021 15:54
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Brett, I'm using 840watts of bifacial panels, and have seen them pull in over 1kw a few times, but yes I hear what your saying.
Well, I wanted a low wattage fridge and now that's what I have. 0 watts in fact. while plugging in diferent things last night to trip the psmode, fridge went a bit funny and I could smell coolant. Then settled back down, but it was all over this morning, wouldn't run. Service center said I voided the warrenty by using solar. I have a couple hundred dollars of meat on ice in the fridge outside, but I don't think it's going tomake it. Big bbq at my place tonight, see you all at 8:00
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travellerw
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# Posted: 8 Nov 2021 16:06 - Edited by: travellerw
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Quoting: Brettny Pic is from today. Early november, pannels in full sun but not totally aimed correctly. I'm loosing about 11W to the MPPT conversion. This is a 40a EPever BN series. I would put another pannel on the roof (I have 4 more) but theres no room on the roof.
Not sure how your panels are configured (parallel or series), but that makes a big difference with Epever controllers. They have so many bugs in the MPPT tracking that series connections are literally unusable. Frankly, my advice would be to throw that controller in the bush. They really are poor and probably the reason you are seeing low numbers. ..
EDIT - Looking at your numbers on the MT-50, you are hooked up Parallel. Those are very poor numbers for even an Epever. Wondering how much cable between the panels and controller and what size!
Again Victron has some good products at good prices. It will outperform that Epever an insane amount. With those panels I would go 2 75/10 (or 75/15). However you could go a single 100/20 and put the panels in parallel. Personally I would use 2 controllers as it gives you redundancy (and slightly better performance). However, that is the boat guy in me talking (you can't just order new stuff from Amazon in the middle of the ocean).
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ICC
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# Posted: 8 Nov 2021 17:48 - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: bc thunder Service center said I voided the warrenty by using solar.
I wouldn't blame it on solar, per se. Did they mean that the power output from the inverter was not pure sine wave? (I have no idea if that AIO you have puts out pure sine wave AC or a modified sine wave, or whatever.)
Yes AC electric motors run hotter and actually use more watts to do the same work when run on a modified sine wave or square sine wave power source. Lots of cheaper equipment is not pure sine wave. Motors run quieter and cooler on pure sine wave power. Sorry but for some reason that never occurred to me earlier. The waveform does make a difference to consumption as well as lifespan. This seems exceptionally short though.
I am not alone in having a solar electric powered home that is OFF grid, not connected to any power grid. I have had service calls under warranty for the $2K+ fridge and there was no problem because I was on solar. The difference may be the waveform of the AC power being used. The off-grid power from topline hardware is possibly a cleaner waveform than what is supplied by some power companies. So to blame it on solar is not proper, but depending on the type of inverter that could be the real culprit.
However, where in their warranty does it state that they have a solid reason to deny the warranty?
Microwaves also perform poorly on non-pure sine wave power. There are a few other types of devices that do poorly or burn out quicker on modified wave inverter power.
I generally do not like anything that is a combination of two or more devices packaged into one package.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 8 Nov 2021 18:10
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Hey ICC, It says right in the manual, not intended for inverters. I didn't ask her their reasons, and honestly don't care. I dragged the thing sideways out the door, tipped it over on its side and filled it with ice.
I'm so tired of solar, and fridges, and bullshit.....
I'm taking a few days off from caring, eating only potaoe chips covered in ice cream, and getting fat.
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ICC
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# Posted: 8 Nov 2021 18:11
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Quoting: bc thunder It says right in the manual, not intended for inverters.
OK then
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 8 Nov 2021 18:23
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WOW, Please let us know Make & Model of that Fridge.
I have a Danby Apartment sized fridge (120V) that uses 240kWh a year (per rating) and even with Powersave it works ok and triggers it. Pulls 6A from 24V Startup (momentary) & 3.5A from 24V running.
But I use a Samlex EVO-4024 Inverter/Charger which is Pure Sine, Low Frequency and costs like $2100 currently. A slightly different kinda critter.
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bc thunder
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# Posted: 8 Nov 2021 18:25
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They didn't mention solar or reasons, just that that was a voidable offence. They felt the reason it quit had more to do with a cabin being outside the operating temps of 10c-30c. I don't know, never will.
All of this crap for acouple weeks, and a death in the family 3 days ago is getting a bit much. I really do need a few days.... in the scope of things the fridge is really nothing.
Thanks to all who have replied and helped me out
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