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Small Cabin Forum / Member's Projects and Photos / Julie's Cabin
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 17:47
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon
I doubt I could get my money back without a legal battle. Then again, there was the misrepresentation. Whether intentional or an error, there was no assistance in making it right. And now the other stuff

Julie, is the other lot he is showing you still OK? More timber is usually a plus? He is OKing clearing whatever timber you need to build your home. Can you have a title company service the note? In other words, a middle man. I bought an extra 20 next to me, owner had note serviced by middleman title company, so no issues on either end. I guess a lookabout is in order. Recon the other lot or have someone else size it up and send pictures. I'd hate to see you loose any money, especially if the lot is still suitable.

sodbuster
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 18:32
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Julie, Others have made some good suggestions and I do not wish to make it more complicated.

It sounds to me like you have an "out" if you chose to pursue it, particularly if values have increased since you bought the land. Have you put money into studies, permits or anything else specific to this tract that might cause you not to move on if you could your $ that has been invested thus far? Perhaps a written outline of the series of miscues by this realtor would set the stage for you and this realtor to reverse this deal with you receiving all your funds back. Not saying you should back away from this but sounds like you have some serious concerns.

If you go in search of another tract I would encourage you to get your own realtor to represent you as a buyers agent and not simply use the realtor with the listing. Think advocacy for you and only you. Not sure of the laws in Oregon on "dual agency" with regard to realtors, but someone representing your side would likely be a good source of knowledge for all the possible pitfalls that can arise in any given location. Typically the seller pays the commission to both so not additional cost to you. Just verify that this is the case for Oregon

As for the situation with this tract you have a contract on - correct me if I am wrong but are you not planning to go mostly solar? I get the feeling you will need to do more clearing than just ingress/egress and a small pad for the cabin.

As for financing- Is there any option like Capital Farm Credit that is available in Texas? Those type of lenders are very familiar with land deals and offer competitive rates, particularly if you plan to pay off early. Like Littlecooner and others have mentioned, I would prefer to have the benefit of title insurance and other layers of protection that a traditional lender is going to insist upon to protect their loan and you.

Not a lawyer but do not see how the issue with homestead would hurt you. I assume you are referring to the homestead exemption for ad valorem taxes on your current home?

In my personal experience, when I am rushed to make a decision I am not at my best and I hate to see you get in a bind over this deal. Real estate deals can be very complicated as no two tracts of land are the same - as you have discovered in spite of performing due diligence.

MtnDon
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 18:59
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Regarding the trees and cutting, clearing... and being in a relatively dry section of OR. What about thinning and clearing for wildfire protection? If the piece of land is overgrown enough that you need to cut trees just to be able to drive on your land, let alone build on it, then it is a wildfire hazard. If it's a wildfire hazard you need to address that and that is more easily done in the immediate area of the cabin site before the cabin goes up. Needing to fell 50 foot trees that are within 30 feet of a completed building can be more excitement / bother than you may want to deal with.

toyota_mdt_tech and others here are all too familiar with the dangers of wildfire in the PNW. My area of NM is similar in climate, perhaps even dryer. We spent a year starting on the tree thinning before we built. I know you don't have a year to wait before building. However, fire safety should be of paramount importance to the seller as well. Perhaps another conversation regarding the tree cutting and thinning for safety should take place before throwing in the towel?

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 19:08
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toyota_mdt_tech
No, the other lot isn't available. If it was when I discovered the problem, I could have swapped and none of this would be an issue. When the problem was discovered, he said there was a chance that the lot WOULD be available before I was there ready to build because the buyer was behind on payments but then he said someone brought him up-to-date. So, does he want me to sit tight there, not cut trees on my current lot, and wait for him to take back that other parcel? Could be. But that makes me squeamish, too.

sodbuster
Yes, you've got it right. That's why, aside from the down and monthlies, I didn't do the warranty trust or invest any other money in it yet. I thought it best to wait until I was ready to move and build. With my weird health situation, too, I only wanted to put in the money I could afford to lose in case of an emergency, delays, or some other unforeseen circumstance. This way, the money from the sale of my home and extra stuff is actually funding my build. It sux to lose ANY money, of course, but I wanted to make sure that the unforeseen wouldn't kill my plans.

I don't want to lose out on my house sale, though. I have 2 investors interested as it's a perfect rental and doesn't need work. If I don't sell relatively soon and get up to Oregon and get a dried-in cabin done this summer, then I'll be delayed another year due to weather. So I've got to form a plan.

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 19:21
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MtnDon
Quite right, of course. At least in Oregon, and in this area, there are ads all over the place from timber guys who will come to your land with their gear and portable sawmills to fell your trees and turn them into building materials for your benefit and theirs. With Ponderosa pine on the property, bingo. Instant clearing/fire perimeter AND building materials (Ponderosa flooring planks would be nice!). And since I don't need much, they could take a good percentage for their own use toward the cost while still falling under the realm of clearing for building, from my perspective.

It still burns my biscuits that I chose my land for purchase with an eye toward all of this -- with substantial clearings already done so none of it would be an issue or need to be done by me. That's why I'm pretty ticked that while I'm trying to deal with HIS mistake or whatever it was, he's not being the least bit accommodating.

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 19:36
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Littlecooner
You're right about the decency of local, small-town folks. I don't know the locals' feelings about this big-city realtor but it's probably as you've described.

I ran across something interesting in the property section on Craigslist. A guy was trying to sell his land north of this area for about $20K. Now, for the uninitiated and from the pics, it didn't look like a bad deal. BUT, someone who also lives right there posted on Craigslist calling him out! She said, yes, they have a home there on 5 acres and it IS beautiful but it's very isolated, hard to build, rocky soil that won't support a garden and, most importantly, 5 acres there is only worth about $5K!

She then proceeded to chastise her neighbor for trying to gouge unsuspecting people. She said that obviously people have the right to recover their investment and make a profit but he is trying to take advantage. And she said that people around there are honest and kind, for the most part, and she hates that this guy is hurting the good reputation of the area by being dishonest. Folks might get the wrong idea about that little town and its people because of one greedy individual.

WOW! Good for her!

MtnDon
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 21:00
Reply 


... and on the subject of trees... Have you thought of insuring the cabin? Every insurance company we talked to about insuring our structures and contents here in our mountains demanded a 30 foot clear space between the building(s) walls and the nearest trees.

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 21:11
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Yes, and the 30-foot clearance is what Oregon forestry recommends. I'd planned on that, as well as keeping up with brush removal. It's common and standard around there, plenty of folks -- and companies -- willing and available to do it.

Regarding insurance, I'm most concerned about insurability in relation to the availability of fire response in the area and water requirements, in that order. I can arrange to have a water tank on the land designated for fire purposes but I don't know how insurers view the adequacy of volunteer FDs being about 10 miles away. Unless the proximity to BLM and U.S. forest service land makes those resources a possibility.

In any case, I hope that I can have my cabin insured but am resigned to the possibility that issues beyond my control may mean I can't. Geez, the state of Oregon itself has had to settle for crappy fire insurance with little coverage/cost recovery because of wildfire issues.

Gary O
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 22:48
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J2, if you'd send me an Email with his name and business name, I could talk his reputation around with the locals.

and

I'd either buy it outright or go shopping (there's just too much land around to not)....but I know you have contingencies that make things complicated

bldginsp
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 22:48
Reply 


Removing enough trees to make a driveway and clear a pad for a building usually is thought of as an improvement to the property. I don't get what his beef is.

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 23:09
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bldginsp
I'm getting a bit concerned that, as LittleCooner previously stated, his business model is to keep flipping land so he wants it as disturbed as little as possible to suit a variety of potential buyers. Yeah, you'd think a driveway is an improvement but I guess people want different types and in different places?

I will email you, Gary O. Thanks! And, along those lines, I began to wonder when I called him with a question about a month ago and I said I'd like to pay off the land when my house sells or, at least, pay off a good chunk of it. He said, oh no, hold onto your money and just increase the payment size if I wanted and any payment over a certain amount, he'd add an additional 10 percent to it. Huh?

That alone wasn't enough to concern me. But now the sit tight and, no, cutting a bunch of trees is a problem has the alarm bells starting to go off in my head.

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 6 Apr 2016 23:17
Reply 


Of course, everything in me now wants to roadtrip up there immediately and deal with this hands-on. I have things I need to settle here, though.

My plan was to sell the house, send my stuff up via UBox, and then my son and I were going to hit the road, get up there and buy an RV to take to the land. Rethinking ... I HATE having to pay stupid Texas sales tax, but I could buy the RV here, we could put my stuff in that and drive it to Oregon and I could stay in an RV park until I get the land resolved. Then move to the land, dig in building.

Not ideal. Perhaps a solution, though.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 00:33
Reply 


I'm thinking original lot you actually worked the deal on. See if it will work, if so, then go ahead with your same plans, just different lot than what you thought, but the same plans, cabin etc should all work still. Not out $$$ and locked in at the lower price still.

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 03:25
Reply 


toyota_mdt_tech
LOL, I'm getting confused. I only worked the deal on one, and bought it. The discrepancy was that he had sent me the pics/packet for the lot next to it which was also for sale. I thought the land I bought had the clearings, driveway, etc. and was even shown that when I went up to see the land. But it turned out that wasn't on my land -- and my land will require clearing for access. I pointed out the problem to him and said I chose the land based on those clearings. No remedy, and I pointed out I'd have to cut a lot more trees simply for access and the build. He didn't say anything at that time.

That other lot sold about the same time I bought so it's not available and he's griping about cutting my cutting trees for my build, wants me to just go out there and camp and wait. That's the situation. I've asked if he has other properties with clearings that I can transfer my equity to so I can build but nothing has come up. And his prices have gone up a lot since I bought. I don't mind paying more for land if it comes with well access, septic approval, more acreage, something. But I don't think I should transfer equity and pay more simply for what I was buying in the first place, you know?

abby
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 05:59
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wow, so sad this is happening, Julie. if you end up having serious doubt about this transaction, it pays to talk to a lawyer that deals with property. years ago we found an acre we fell in love with to build. we were given written confirmation it was tested and viable for septic. I checked, and in fact that was totally a lie. no perc tests were ever done, and I was told there would most likely be a problem in that particular area. he refused to give money back. well, took one letter from a lawyer to receive all down payment money back. (in this situation it also helped that HE signed my name on the contract, not me) our guy was a real butthead, but at least we got our money back minus a fee (well worth it!) for the lawyer. my point being it's amazing how one error can be of benefit to you in a contract. I hate the added stress this has given you. how dare he mess with your plans.......I want to bop him up the side of his head!!

bldginsp
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 08:31 - Edited by: bldginsp
Reply 


This guy needs a letter from your attorney to make him wake up. Your contract clearly states that you can cut and clear, to a certain extent. Do you have title?

Littlecooner
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 09:15
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Julie2Oregon
Big red flag here when this guy does not want you to pay off lot and let you obtain title. Do you understand if you build on this land while he has title that the house could become his, since you do not have the deed in hand? You are improving his property with the house, it is not your property. I have though a long time on even saying this, but this is a huge problem for you, huge. I think a road trip is mandatory and I will suggest again, go get a lawyer, now and also begin to look at other options in the area. I see that there are 100's if not 1000's of vacant lots for sale in the county, in a vast range of prices. The courts can and will get your money back from this guy at some point in time. Please make the road trip, seek advice and legal advice and consider not building on this lot if you do not have a warranty deed in hand before doing anything.

silverwaterlady
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 13:03
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I wonder how many other people have photos of the very same lot making payments from afar?

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 13:45 - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
Reply 


All one needs is a title company to service the note. Once the sale starts, you make arrangements on payments, its all written up, title company holds deed, this way, if you default, he gets it back, but as long as you make payments, he can not take it out from under you. Once paid in full, the title company transfers ownership to you. Lets suppose owner was killed in a car wreck, and he held the deed still, his kids could get involved, take it back etc. Its crazy. Buying from him would be fine, but have a title company service the note. This is the people you also send in your payment too.

naturelover66
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 17:51
Reply 


This seller sounds like bad news. I would find other land .

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 18:46
Reply 


No, I haven't gone through the title company. I was going to do that right before I moved. As in now. The property is still in his name, which actually has served me well because of the homestead exemption and other issues I have here. I've paid the taxes and such through him. And called the tax office to verify the taxes were paid.

I wouldn't usually proceed like that in real estate. However, being that I'm so far away, can't check up on this guy and things, and didn't know if my health would unexpectedly crash, I wanted a bit of flexibility before I cast everything in cement with a title transfer and deed until I was actually moving and there. In other words, while wanting to move forward and secure land for my plans, I also didn't want to irretrievably affect my finances and current situation.

I also wanted to make sure that if I fulfilled my end of the agreement, this guy would, too, and some time would tell that. I think it has.

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 18:51
Reply 


Quoting: sodbuster
It sounds to me like you have an "out" if you chose to pursue it, particularly if values have increased since you bought the land. Have you put money into studies, permits or anything else specific to this tract that might cause you not to move on if you could your $ that has been invested thus far? Perhaps a written outline of the series of miscues by this realtor would set the stage for you and this realtor to reverse this deal with you receiving all your funds back. Not saying you should back away from this but sounds like you have some serious concerns.


No, I haven't invested in all of that yet. I was about to it, starting with a survey. So, this could be a mixed blessing, you know? Finding out that there's a problem now is better than after I'm out thousands more dollars.

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 19:00
Reply 


abby
Thank you! I don't know that I'm so in love with this land that I want to get into a legal battle over it because all that would do is delay my plans and build. There is plenty of nice properties around there. I have to weigh my objectives plus adding a bunch of stress, delays, and lawyers fees with either fighting to build on that property or to recover about $3K. While that's nothing to sneeze at, it's not a huge sum, either, and it didn't come out of my savings or cabin budget. Retaining a lawyer would eat up that amount of money in a flash. And I could lose and wind up being ordered to pay HIS legal fees, too. Court is always a gamble, even if you're in the right.

bldginsp
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 20:23 - Edited by: bldginsp
Reply 


I'm no expert here, but I'm hearing one thing I don't understand- it sounds like you do not have the deed. When I bought my place with seller financing, I got the deed (Grant Deed), but the loan (the 'note') was secured by a Deed of Trust. The property was always 'mine' even though I owed more than I had in equity. When I paid it off, I received a Reconveyance which removes the Deed of Trust, leaving me with the property with no encumberance.

But, did you not receive the Grant Deed? If not I guess you have some other form of contract with him which grants you title after it is paid off.

One thing I'm hearing in this thread is the presumption that he has mal intent, which he may, but may not. I wouldn't assume the worst until you have to- these things are always better settled in peaceful agreement than contentious argument. I'd approach him in a friendly way and try to settle it- you need to cut trees, but only so many.

Agreed hiring a lawyer costs too much. But you could perhaps try in small claims. He breached contract if he prohibits you from cutting enough for driveway and buildings.

If all you have in it is a few thousand, and he is not honest, perhaps it's time to cut your losses and proceed otherwise. But first get a written document from him explicitly stating that he prohibits you from cutting, in contradiction to the contract. Otherwise in small claims its 'he said she said' and judges don't like that. They like documented proof.

Or, pay it off whether he likes it or not. Then you won't have to pay all that interest to him, and he's out of your hair.

Do you have easement access to the property, or does it border a road?

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 20:51
Reply 


bldginsp
Right now, I simply have a signed Agreement for Sale of Real Estate that delineates everything and I've been making the payments.

For a small fee, I can file for the deed packet which includes a Warranty Deed, Trust Deed, and Promissory Note. The Trust and Promissory Note would be removed when the land was paid in full and another fee would be paid to get that processed.

According to him, you can build without a deed by showing the Sales Agreement to the building department and they'd send him a form to sign Ok-ing it.

Obviously, if I were to build on that land, I'd be doing the deed. No pun intended, heh. But for my purposes until that time, having a second residential property in my name would have been a financial problem for me (I really don't want to go into the details of that in public) and a flag on my TX homestead exemption tax break for the upcoming year. Why do that to myself when I was hospitalized all last summer and unable to do anything?

How enforceable and binding is this Agreement to Purchase thing if he restricts what I can do on the land to the point of creating a building hardship? I don't know.

My plan has been an accelerated payoff of the land from my monthly income and to use the proceeds from the sale of my house to build the cabin and infrastructure. I really don't want to go into more longterm debt by taking out a loan to pay off the land over this. For one, loans for raw, remote land can be hard to get if you're not going to be farming. Secondly, there are plenty of other, better owner carry options in this area now.

I have spoken with him. Many times. I may not have posted about this previously but that doesn't mean it hasn't been going on and I haven't been trying to figure it out. The only reason I've posted now is that I'm trying to finalize things on my end so I can go and build and am encountering difficulty.

toyota_mdt_tech
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 20:55
Reply 


Julie, snoop around in here:
http://www.landwatch.com/Oregon_land_for_sale/Klamath_Falls

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 21:18
Reply 


toyota_mdt_tech
Holy crap, they're charging two and three times more for the same land you can buy locally! 20K for a half-acre in Chiloquin?

If people are paying those prices, then I need to get into the biz once I get settled!

bldginsp
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 21:25
Reply 


Good luck

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 7 Apr 2016 21:41
Reply 


Thanks. The answers will come. I'm working on it.
LOL, I actually DID look into a "farm" loan since I'll be growing veggies, some for sale at the farmers market, and I hope to get some chickens.

Well, farm loans require that you demonstrate a knowledge of and several years of experience in farming, a detailed business plan, etc. Imagine that, haha. Wrangling contrary bulldogs and having a successful backyard garden don't count, unfortunately, lol. Too bad, because women and minority farmers get funding priority!

Julie2Oregon
Member
# Posted: 8 Apr 2016 22:13
Reply 


Well, I'm in discussion over a lot for sale. Dang, it's gorgeous. Septic testing done and approved, power to lot, private seller with a title company that would handle the transaction. Good price and an EXCELLENT area.

Haha, a greenhouse will be a must since it's in the winter refuge for mule deer and they hang out in the area a lot. Because of that, there is a conservation and building density overlay but that's not a problem since there aren't many homes in the area and my place will be small. The current owner filed all of the paperwork to build there and got the approval. He's sending me the copies.

Here are some pics:
land_view.jpg
land_view.jpg
land.jpg
land.jpg
reservoir.jpg
reservoir.jpg
deer.jpg
deer.jpg


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